Game Mechanics: Melee PvP on Project Red99

[Nirgon]

Since they're fudging ac/atk in pve to fit the current formula... expect this to be broken.


Way I'd think to go about it is get logs on live with chars of varying level ranges melee'ing each other with gear obtainable on P99 -> get that behavior duplicated here -> tweak pve values from there (should turn out to be actual values).

Until then, its neva gonna be right unless flat miss chances etc are just coded into pvp..

It's not horrible but its very high

[Potus]

Any one have some classic pvp screens/logs? Should be able to get a rough estimate of how often people were hitting.

I remember people missing a lot and I was a fragile clothie.

[Nirgon]

Depends if they had shielding / buffs etc..

This should all parse out the same on live with the same items/levels with 0 AA.

[hivemind]

Originally Posted by no chewie dont [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

hit rate seems reasonable but the 360 degree hit box is the problem
hit box on beta seemed legit from what i remember

I cannot personally comment on the hit rate in any meaningful way, but I recently submitted a bug very much in line with the OP. Chewie underlines what I see as the main component of this melee PVP bug: you do not need to be facing your target whatsoever to perform melee attacks on them in PVP (stark opposite of PVE).

I did a little testing a few weeks ago to try to understand how exactly auto attack worked in PVP. From my testing, I discerned there is essentially only two conditions that needs to be met in order for you to perform auto attacks against a target:

1) Auto attack on
2) your character model in range (10 yards-ish?) to your target

Your target can be standing 10 yards directly behind you, and if you have them targeted and turn on auto attack, you will start swinging at them all the while seeing a spam of errors in your combat log that "You cannot see your target". You continue getting these errors as you swing (and hit or miss) them.

So, when meleeing on this server during PVP, it is best to think of yourself as having a 10 yard radius of influence (or however large the actual range is), and anything that comes within that 10 yard radius you can attack (regardless of which direction you are facing).

Definitely not how I remember classic PVP... and the fact that your combat log gets spammed with "You cannot see your target" as you are swinging (and hitting) them makes the situation seem even more suspect.

[Nirgon]

Joust backstab worked because of this on live. You did not have to face.

[Colgate]

Originally Posted by hivemind [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

and the fact that your combat log gets spammed with "You cannot see your target" as you are swinging (and hitting) them makes the situation seem even more suspect.

probably a product of this being the titanium client

[Potus]

Originally Posted by Nirgon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Joust backstab worked because of this on live. You did not have to face.

Pretty sure joust backstab worked because the client got confused about the rogue not being behind and facing the target.

Kind of the same way it gets confused about casters stopping and casting spells, it takes an extra half second for the server to register where the player character is in the world.

Both were bugs but Verant/Sony never got around to ever fixing it.

[Nirgon]

One thing is for sure. I will absolutely concede this after testing backstab jousting.


The range where you can hit a player is about 4-5x too long. It is absolutely way too big and trivializes jousting/chasing mechanics in pvp.


I'd be happy to demonstrate this for a dev with a rogue in game.


On live from classic even into Kunark, it has always been the case that rogue backstab checks 2 things and only 2 things when hitting another player:

1 - am I behind the target
2 - am I in range of the target




Potus's eyes only:
This does make pvping on casters easier because melee can reach you from too far away here, at least with special attacks (hi bash) and definitely backstab you way too easily.

[hivemind]

Originally Posted by Potus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Pretty sure joust backstab worked because the client got confused about the rogue not being behind and facing the target.

Kind of the same way it gets confused about casters stopping and casting spells, it takes an extra half second for the server to register where the player character is in the world.

Both were bugs but Verant/Sony never got around to ever fixing it.

This. It is in no way classic for melee to be able to hit players with auto or special attacks while not facing the target. Joust backstab worked in classic if you could time the backstab perfectly while running through the player. Eh... but I never played a rogue during classic, and I was playing on 56k anyway... so my perception of jousting in general during that time is a bit odd.

Nearly positive you should not be able to freely auto attack players that are standing directly behind you. Not during classic, not during now... shit is buggy as hell. Gives melee a huge advantage, especially when coupled with the seemingly massive melee attack range of players.

[Nirgon]

So if you never turned to face them how did it work? It should be possible without turning to face but the range (like I said) is 5x too large.