Ogre is a Noob Trap

[magnetaress]

I 1000% agree with Op. Even in vanilla. You will have buffs. Being 20 points behind = literally 4% of effectiveness.

Your lvl 50 ogre sk will have a marginally higher dps output in a select few situations.

U know what matters more? A dark elf with both high int and dex.

Get wrekted u big sweaty newbz.

Also barbarians get awesome bonus gear and lvling spots in vanilla.

Literally only troll regen is a factor. And only prior to kunark and lvl 60 solo.

[Snaggles]

The more casual you are with a melee class the more an ogre helps in terms of end gear itemization. Capping stamina with a non-giant race is possible but not easy. Capping strength is even harder since tank gear has a lot of stamina and not much else. Unless you are talking BiS or nearly BiS stuff.

Worst case with an ogre you have marginal dex and agility, have to shrink without illusions, have a 15% penalty. Str and Sta capping easy means free hps and higher attack.

It’s not going to change what you can or cant tank. It’s not an endgame limitation. It’s not a “trap” again unless you think it will make you noticeably better.

[Gustoo]

The stats you will max with velious no matter what as you say if you BIS

Ogre gets FSI and large weapon capability
Troll gets regen and large weapon capability.

Small races get none of those things. Only good thing is Halfling exp bonus and dwarf MR bonus

And size

Be whoever you want, but the reason those races win (in addition to nice power when you’re poorly geared) are the indisputable racial traits

You could try to parse identical elf vs ogre or troll warriors and see who hits more often there is fantasy level theory quest that wood elf’s have hit box advantage compared to a big ogre that can impact their damage output or the damage they receive. Maybe.

[greatdane]

None of the classes that can pick ogre care much about capping strength, so it's largely irrelevant whether or not you overcap it, or if it hits diminishing returns after 200.

Stamina doesn't have diminishing returns, and in order to cap it out with a non-large race, you need some pretty high-end gear that most players don't really have access to.

For shamans, the difference in wisdom between ogre and the race with the highest wisdom (iksar) is a paltry 13 points, so there's no meaningful disadvantage.

The only class that cares about dexterity is warrior, and there's a mere 20-point difference from ogre to the races with the highest DEX (dwarf/halfling). Compare that to the difference in STR/STA.

Meanwhile, never getting stunned is useful at all times to all characters. Tanks benefit from never going into derpy spin-mode if they get bashed while turning. Casters benefit from casting through bash more often than not.



Let's sum up the relevant stats of each race for the three classes that can go ogre. Less significant but still-relevant stats in paranthesis.

Warrior: STA, DEX (STR, AGI)

Shadow Knight: STA, INT (STR, AGI)

Shaman: WIS, STA

Sum of each race:

WARRIOR
Ogre: 202 (215)
Troll: 194 (206)
Barb: 175 (200)
Dwarf: 190 (175)
Halfl: 175 (180)
Iksar: 165 (175)
W-elf: 155 (175)
H-elf: 165 (175)
Gnm: 165 (160)
Hum: 160 (165)
D-elf: 150 (160)

SHADOW KNIGHT
Ogre: 197 (210)
Troll: 179 (201)
Iksar: 160 (170)
Erud: 192 (140)
Hum: 165 (160)
D-elf: 179 (160)

SHAMAN
Ogre: 204
Troll: 184
Barb: 180
Iksar: 165

So in terms of raw stats, ogres are considerably better than the other races for all classes that can be ogre. Not only that but their highest stat is the most important one, the one that all the min-maxers say to put all your points into for non-ogre characters. It's not only a higher sum of numbers but also placed predominantly in the most important stat. I hesitated to even place INT as a primary stat for SKs since mana pool doesn't really matter all that much, but if I hadn't, the gap between ogre and the other races would have been downright hilarious.

And while in theory anyone can cap out their STR/STA in the endgame, how long does it take from a fresh server's launch until you're sporting multiple pieces of Velious raid loot and a full set of Skyshrine or whatever? Two and a half years of play or something along those lines? All the way up until then, the ogre stats are especially awesome. In classic in particular, just having that much natural strength is a godsend that will earn you potentially hundreds of plat per day in fine steel weapons you didn't have to discard. Having like 120-140 strength naked is insanely convenient at the launch of a fresh server, and remains relevant even through Kunark with its statless armor sets and general lack of raid loot with strength. It's entirely normal for even full-time Kunark raiders to have no more than 20-30ish points of strength from gear, unless it's a rogue who geared specifically for it and is still wearing Hero Bracers and shit like that.

[Solist]

Gnome clearly superior looking at that.

[magnetaress]

ppl who are PRO ogre are so die hard ogre it borders on a personality disorder. So I would be suspicious about ogre being the cureall-so-good-solution to all of the worlds problems.

It really isn't.

Don't let this sweaty pressure pressure u into being an ogre. Be what you want to be, there are pros and cons to every combo.

The only time I would recommend OGRE style min max is:
* you have very limited play time and will probably only be one character ever anyway and never have any good gear past entry level kunark --- in which case, pick TROLL or IKSAR as the regen will give you much more out of your limited play time and your stats will still be plenty sufficient

--- that above case is a great reason to pick ogre, because you start out where everyone will be

the difference end game and in groups truly isn't that impressive

if you are going to tank dragons and statues ---- being an ogre is irrelevant, having a competant team is more relevant 1 DPM on a CH of 5dpm vs 6dpm will not make a single bit of difference, especially on this timeline where everyone one shots these mobs and logs into their next account parked at the next mob so they don't have to run

It's silly to say "Ogre" is better in this scenario. Waste hours on being an ogre and being fustrated and quitting by lvl 39 because you are fat, still don't have shrink, and are depressed. And everyone else is an depressed ogre hoping they get lvl 60 one day, then be bored because their character is cardboard stamped off an assembly line for feeding the raid and solo machine and sickness that is not roleplaying.

Now--- a properly roll played ogre is something to behold. I haven't seen one in a few years though.

[eqravenprince]

It's the crouching through doors that make me not like Ogres. Other than that, I love them. Feerrott is the best newbie zone!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by magnetaress [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

ppl who are PRO ogre are so die hard ogre it borders on a personality disorder. So I would be suspicious about ogre being the cureall-so-good-solution to all of the worlds problems.

Nobody is actually die hard pro Ogre. People simply state the facts that the big races are better statistically and have better racials.

Everquest, before any expansion, was designed around the idea that faction and inconvenience of travel would balance out Ogre/Troll superior stats and racials. Even though Ogres/Trolls clearly have the advantage, they are hated in a lot of places, which means it would be hard to buy/sell supplies like bandages. To brand new players who didn't know much about the game, this did indeed balance Ogres/Trolls out to a large degree. A Human with access to bandages in basically every other zone would be able to get back in the fight faster than even a Troll, and you could have a Magician friend who could summon them instead.

But every expansion basically chipped away at these constraints, because people complained (I assume). Both Kunark and Velious don't really have specific faction that is deterimental to Ogres/Trolls specifically, so everybody has an equal playing field in that sense. With Druids and Wizards being higher level when the expansions came out, travel became less of an issue too. So the only thing that remained is the superior stats and racials. That is why Ogres/Trolls are the best in P99, because faction and travel are trivialized, so Ogres/Trolls aren't constrained by the very things that were meant to balance them out.

I haven't seen anybody on these forums force people to be any race. New players ask questions about races, and they get answers as to which races are objectively better. I don't see anybody saying that Ogres/Trolls are so vastly superior it is impossible to make another choice, either. Give players the facts, and let them decide what they want to play. It's that simple.

[drackgon]

Just going to point out something a lot of peeps seem to forget. Yes in the far end game No race truly matters. Gnome for mages for coth probably only thing that truly matters in the end game.

But early game what helps Orges at start? Is being able to carry everything under the sun. It made me way more money while in groups peeps leaving that Bronze/FS on ground, bc their wizzy/enc/cleric(wearing plate and near encumbered). Yeah sometimes I'd offer to /split and sell with group, but most time peeps would just bail and = extra plat for me to buy spells/twink alts/pay for ports/buy the first like Mithril 2 hander sold/dark reaver etc.

Yeah that str/stm end game is going to be capped. But meh at the very start it helps. Totally for war/SK. Heck even shmmys but they can summon bags early on.

[pink grapefruit]

Originally Posted by magnetaress [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

ppl who are PRO ogre are so die hard ogre it borders on a personality disorder.

🤣🤣