Proposed change to the 15 man claim rule

[Skope]

Originally Posted by Skope [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I know it's your sandbox and blablabla

[quido]

Originally Posted by Uthgaard [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I will never ever advocate or encourage any nitpicking over any rules. My suggestion is to stay on the spawn point, because the likelihood of us not giving a shit is directly proportional to the questionability of the situation.

I can totally understand and appreciate that. I know that policing our drama takes a lot of effort and that oftentimes people are childish enough to not really be worthy of a thorough consideration. At the same time it would be really nice for everyone to know the specifics so that we can prepare and act accordingly. I have no interest in further burdening the server staff with issues pertaining to raid engagements - knowing what is and isn't implied by a particular rule is crucial to employing tactics that are beyond reproach. I'm not trying to rules-lawyer anyone here; I just don't want to get rules-lawyered myself. I'm sure people could put together a few more worthy questions and concerns deserving of clarification.

[Uthgaard]

I thought I did answer it. At least it doesn't seem at all open ended to me. You're either within aggro range or you're not, but 50 people spread out a fair distance away have no way of knowing whether they're in aggro range or not, unless the furthest person away gets aggro first. So take the common sense approach, and stay reasonably close to the spawn point. I can't see any reason to try to push that limit.

[Zereh]

I don't recommend trying to lawyer rules with the rule lawyer ~

[quido]

Yeah believe me, I want our actions to be as clear-cut as possible. I only asked for further clarification because the newly endorsed "on the spawn" is starkly different than "within aggro range." Now I know! And knowing is half the battle.

I have zero interest in sitting on any spawns, but I have infinity interest in killing every raid mob possible. I personally liked things better when engagements didn't happen instantly and there was a hot minute or two of people logging in and both guilds vying for the target. The Trakanon that popped at a terrible hour this morning and took 30 minutes to die was about a million times less absurd than parking people on spawn points.

Was I dreaming though when I read a post around the new year saying something to the effect of "previous raid rules are abolished, all raid mobs are FTE now period"? I mistakenly tried to apply this new FTE rule (or so I thought) to a camp back in April as can be seen in http://www.project1999.org/forums/sh...t=34783&page=2. Here Rogean seems to agree that raid mobs became FTE period, but I don't know, maybe he didn't really mean that much. I can't find the post where this was originally stated. I honestly had no reason to read the raid rules sticky for a number of months and really believed until very recently that unspawned raid mobs were FTE too. I thought the 15man rule was a complete circus from an enforcement point of view - conflicting and/or doctored screen shots, people boxing to get numbers first, people fucking with zones to crash out some or all of those fifteen - and that that's why things went to FTE. FTE is pure, simple, fair, and easy to enforce.

However dumb we were to play TR's game and go park on the spawn is meager when compared to how completely absurd and stupid the 15man rule was when it was actually invoked in the raiding world.

[Aadill]

Originally Posted by Zereh [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't recommend trying to lawyer rules with the rule lawyer ~

Rulegaard

[Uthgaard]

I've said this with regard to a number of rules. If you think a different suggestion is better: think through the consequences of the changes, make the suggestion, and show that it is both better for the players and has fewer gray areas for enforcement. I would recommend a single post in the petition forum over a discussion thread about it because those just turn into 30 page pissing matches of shit that's been said over and over.

What's currently in place was made from player suggestions. It's worked well enough so far, so I wouldn't expect drastic changes from that. People cry for things to be changed on knee-jerk reactions to temporary butthurt all the time. But a reasonable explanation of why something should be changed with good reason would be at least discussed.

[quido]

Thanks for the input Uthgaard! I look forward to possibly contributing to some constructive rule changes in the future.

[Skope]

Uthgaard, the current rules, even though FTE in spirit, always had the silly 15 to engage and could be abused poopsock style. It isn't a matter of "the rules have been fine thus far so why butthurt?" but rather that only 1 guild had enough 60s to do the content and now months later you're getting the same crap you had before: an influx of higher levels wanting the same content and you know this better than most. There is no perfect fix, but you're seeing the flaws in this system that have been around for a long time and are only now coming to fruition

[Tiggles]

Thank you Uthgaard for posting in my thread and clarifying things. It was very helpful and shed some light on a very tricky situation.

I know having two opposing guilds trying to rules lawyer each other can cause the staff untold headaches and I hope in the very near future we can work out the specifics on the raid rules and have both guilds understand them so we can play and compete on this server in a fair and better yet non-staff involved manner.

I see no reason why any TMO should post on this thread anymore now that we have an official route to pursue in the petition forums.


Thank you again for your hard work and dedication to this project the server as a whole appreciates it.

-Tiggles