Fantastic idea

[Silentone]

Originally Posted by bonehand [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

My god...how hard is this? Points? How is that to be measured? "OOH, I gave this newbie_001 a plat! Plus one! Hooray!" GM's and guides don't have the time to give people shiny star shaped stickers for being good...and as for the banning a guild from raids for one exploiter? Simple...disband guild, and petition to make a new guild solves that. So, what we needed on live was some accountability.

Just make a freaking calendar.

Guilds post their days for raiding.

Each guild has a 24 hour day to complete the kill from the next spawn. Some are variable, some are set...we have enough info to calculate which is which. Free for all FCFS kill if they cannot do it within 24 hours.

No guild can kill the same spawn consecutively, though assisting is permitable if so requested and an assist must be less than 25% of the raid force. (Loot notes below)

If a server zone goes down due to fix or server goes down for patch, then assume the calendar shifts over and the kill attempt and 24 hour timer is reset (ie server crashed during kill, mob is reset and won't be up for 3 days).

All this could be maintained by one guild rep from the raiding guilds in one thread that is public for all to read, but only posts allowed by Guild Rep (think moderator for their own Schedule forum section).

Each success posts the Names of the raiders and the loot dropped. Awards to primary raid force do not need to be posted (ie, the DK got the Pally BP cause no Pally in raid would just cause grief) but notes concerning loot to assist players (ie Pally BP went to GuildX's GM for payment of assist, no Pally in raid) would be required.

This allows for all guilds to communicate through one person instead of the douchebaggery you got going on here. Allows all capable guilds to at least have a try at something. And keeps the discussion civil if only a Guild Rep makes a schedule change (ie Raid leader and his wench are ill, can we trade this kill for your kill next week?)

The first post is moderated by the Guild Reps or an outside entity....mod, gm, slacker with no freaking involvement in any of the guilds...

No raid is a trivial event, and unauthorized raids, raids out of turn, or hindering the ability of a raid to function as scheduled results in a 24hr to perma suspension of the problem players and all loot rewards forfeit or distributed as the responding Guide or GM see's fit. (ie ninja, training, KS, ...)

There is no "innocent until proven guilty"...the raid force on the schedule is automatically given benefit of the doubt, and as long as their remains provable evidence to the guilt, the offender(s) can be summarly judged by the presiding server representative.

Punishments are tracked by guild and player. (ie players from GuildX (player_001 to player_008) trained GuildY and got 24 hr suspension, then player_001 from GuildX solo trains GuildZ next time, then player from GuildX will suffer more severe punishment leading to perma ban on the third offense)...this will create havok for character sales of characters with bad rep...but a simple search of the Schedule forum for punishments related to your character name is easy! A broker can confirm the sale and notify a server representative about the trade to partially clear the name using the petition forum.

So there. You want crazy, I want civility...

Well that sounds crazy to me O.o [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Webwolf]

It's called community service and it's a dumb idea.

[bonehand]

Originally Posted by Silentone [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Well that sounds crazy to me O.o [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I guess it is a matter of perspective. I see self governance as a benefit to the community. Self governance has stated rules, and you are allowed to live as you please within those boundaries. But I also assume you didn't read all of my post.

You just decided to [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] because of its length...it wouldn't be the first time.

[Kope]

Originally Posted by bonehand [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I guess it is a matter of perspective. I see self governance as a benefit to the community. Self governance has stated rules, and you are allowed to live as you please within those boundaries. But I also assume you didn't read all of my post.

I could be wrong but didn't the top guilds opt out of self governance a little while back? That was kinda the whole basis of me presenting this idea. Again I could be totally wrong on this.

[bonehand]

Well, self govern or bitch and moan. They are currently doing the second, so apparently the whole discussion is moot. Nobody will be able to track your socialist-style scheme, that probably could be exploited easily, btw. And if nobody will follow simple rules, then the only alternatives are to 1) delete the posts as fast as they are made or 2) shutdown the forums. Really, the problem is the guilds. They have no rules, and what I proposed does not involve the guild deciding if they are going to be self-governed. It is rules about how the must self-govern.

If they don't follow the rules, the punishment is simple. If they do, then the rewards are there too.

You don't give children choices until they grow up.

[h0tr0d (shaere)]

You can't self govern here it isn't PvP.

You don't give children choices until they grow up.

Amen. Only when people act like children in game they aren't denied things they are rewarded. I understand the argument if they break rules they are punished but I could argue some of the rule breaking is not due to immature misunderstanding or impatience but genuine frustration at unfairness and perceived injustice.

[Kope]

Originally Posted by bonehand [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Nobody will be able to track your socialist-style scheme

Your reason for not even giving it a fair shot is socializm? Are you serious?

Originally Posted by bonehand [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

probably could be exploited easily, btw

You are correct here, but every system is easily exploitable. It, like any other idea, can work if given the chance in the correct circumstance.

[Dr4z3r]

Originally Posted by bonehand [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No raid is a trivial event, and unauthorized raids, raids out of turn, or hindering the ability of a raid to function as scheduled results in a 24hr to perma suspension of the problem players and all loot rewards forfeit or distributed as the responding Guide or GM see's fit. (ie ninja, training, KS, ...)

Right there, you're involving server guides/GM's. That means that it's not self-governance: it's GM-enforced. If you're going to suggest new rules that take GM time to enforce, then you need to ask yourself whether it's going to take more time, or less time, to enforce your suggested ruleset than the current ruleset.

Training and other raid interference is already being enforced according to the guidelines you suggested, so from the server staff's perspective all of the changes in your proposal amount to "GM's should also enforce raiding in turn order."

All of these proposals for new raiding rules seem geared towards eliminating forum drama, and not actual staff workload. Start from the assumption that your proposal has to be both simpler for raiders and be less time-consuming for staff, and you'll be going in a much better direction.

[Kope]

Originally Posted by Dr4z3r [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

All of these proposals for new raiding rules seem geared towards eliminating forum drama, and not actual staff workload. Start from the assumption that your proposal has to be both simpler for raiders and be less time-consuming for staff, and you'll be going in a much better direction.

This is the exact way we should be thinking. Unfortunately this idea dramatically increases staff workload and doesn't help raiding at all (was just thinking of community buliding).

Good thoughts, things to contemplate on.

[Ennoia]

Originally Posted by bonehand [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

My god...how hard is this? Points? How is that to be measured? "OOH, I gave this newbie_001 a plat! Plus one! Hooray!" GM's and guides don't have the time to give people shiny star shaped stickers for being good...and as for the banning a guild from raids for one exploiter? Simple...disband guild, and petition to make a new guild solves that. So, what we needed on live was some accountability.

Just make a freaking calendar.

Guilds post their days for raiding.

Each guild has a 24 hour day to complete the kill from the next spawn. Some are variable, some are set...we have enough info to calculate which is which. Free for all FCFS kill if they cannot do it within 24 hours.

No guild can kill the same spawn consecutively, though assisting is permitable if so requested and an assist must be less than 25% of the raid force. (Loot notes below)

If a server zone goes down due to fix or server goes down for patch, then assume the calendar shifts over and the kill attempt and 24 hour timer is reset (ie server crashed during kill, mob is reset and won't be up for 3 days).

All this could be maintained by one guild rep from the raiding guilds in one thread that is public for all to read, but only posts allowed by Guild Rep (think moderator for their own Schedule forum section).

Each success posts the Names of the raiders and the loot dropped. Awards to primary raid force do not need to be posted (ie, the DK got the Pally BP cause no Pally in raid would just cause grief) but notes concerning loot to assist players (ie Pally BP went to GuildX's GM for payment of assist, no Pally in raid) would be required.

This allows for all guilds to communicate through one person instead of the douchebaggery you got going on here. Allows all capable guilds to at least have a try at something. And keeps the discussion civil if only a Guild Rep makes a schedule change (ie Raid leader and his wench are ill, can we trade this kill for your kill next week?)

The first post is moderated by the Guild Reps or an outside entity....mod, gm, slacker with no freaking involvement in any of the guilds...

No raid is a trivial event, and unauthorized raids, raids out of turn, or hindering the ability of a raid to function as scheduled results in a 24hr to perma suspension of the problem players and all loot rewards forfeit or distributed as the responding Guide or GM see's fit. (ie ninja, training, KS, ...)

There is no "innocent until proven guilty"...the raid force on the schedule is automatically given benefit of the doubt, and as long as their remains provable evidence to the guilt, the offender(s) can be summarly judged by the presiding server representative.

Punishments are tracked by guild and player. (ie players from GuildX (player_001 to player_008) trained GuildY and got 24 hr suspension, then player_001 from GuildX solo trains GuildZ next time, then player from GuildX will suffer more severe punishment leading to perma ban on the third offense)...this will create havok for character sales of characters with bad rep...but a simple search of the Schedule forum for punishments related to your character name is easy! A broker can confirm the sale and notify a server representative about the trade to partially clear the name using the petition forum.

So there. You want crazy, I want civility...

There's a few things in there that could afford to be changed (24 hours? more like 4 hours from the time of spawn to engage, has to be dead within 12 hours).

Originally Posted by h0tr0d (shaere) [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You can't self govern here it isn't PvP.

Not true at all man. A PvE community can govern itself, but the community has to all be on board. Though it won't work with the leaders of the big guilds acting like children and just refusing to go with it.