A Question for anyone who has played a ranger a lot...

[Mcbard]

Some of the best people and players I've ever met in EverQuest play high level rangers on project 1999. As far as "usefulness" the class is as useful as any other utility hybrid in terms of DPS, exceedingly useful for utility purposes, and they have marginal uses on raids as well. I love rangers.

[mitic]

rangers are top 3 in mele dps after rogues and monks, have one of the widest weapon arsenal, they can tank well enough in groups, can snare kite adds in raids, harmony pull outdoor, track half a zone, sneak, hide...

that enuf to make you play one?

[Aadill]

Originally Posted by mitic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

rangers are top 3 in mele dps after rogues and monks, have one of the widest weapon arsenal, they can tank well enough in groups, can snare kite adds in raids, harmony pull outdoor, track half a zone, sneak, hide...

But, but.. my exp!

[nocookiesforme]

Do people really care about the Hybrid EXP penalty in grouping? Does it actually deter people from grouping with Hybrid classes? I just did some quick napkin math, and it's very possible that I messed it up, but I don't really think I did:

Say a group with a Ranger, with an EXP modifier of 1.4, and 5 people with an EXP modifier of 1.00, are grouped together; all are the same level, so the Ranger has collected exactly 1.4 times the experience that everyone else in the group has. They kill a MOB that, after factoring in all other EXP mods, gives a total of 640 EXP. The Ranger will get 140 of the Experience, everybody else will get 100.

If you replace that ranger with a different class that has a 1.0 modifier and kill the same mob, everybody gets 106.667, for a total of a <7% difference. Unless your group composition is such that a Ranger is TOTALLY redundant, is that really enough to deter you from grouping with one? I know it hasn't stopped me yet, but I'm curious to see if other people truly care.

[Aadill]

Originally Posted by nocookiesforme [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Do people really care about the Hybrid EXP penalty in grouping? Does it actually deter people from grouping with Hybrid classes?

In the case of many of the mongoloids on this server that want to get 60, get all their loot, and wait for the next expansion so they can continue the cycle, yes.

Basically P99 is a min/maxer's heaven. They can do all the things they did on live but can do them with knowledge, including the clarification of XP penalties. With that said, spending an extra few hours getting your levels really irks some people and as such they don't find enough positives in classes like rangers to merit them a spot in a group despite their xp penalty.

There are, however, a lot of people that don't have a stick up their ass and are more happy to play with anyone that also wants to play, regardless of class. As long as you play the class well, a ranger is a fairly versatile and useful groupmember. The problem is that they really are just a jack of all trades - they can do anything but not really well. Bards are the same way but they have mana song~

[Tux]

Originally Posted by nocookiesforme [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Do people really care about the Hybrid EXP penalty in grouping? Does it actually deter people from grouping with Hybrid classes? I just did some quick napkin math, and it's very possible that I messed it up, but I don't really think I did:

Say a group with a Ranger, with an EXP modifier of 1.4, and 5 people with an EXP modifier of 1.00, are grouped together; all are the same level, so the Ranger has collected exactly 1.4 times the experience that everyone else in the group has. They kill a MOB that, after factoring in all other EXP mods, gives a total of 640 EXP. The Ranger will get 140 of the Experience, everybody else will get 100.

If you replace that ranger with a different class that has a 1.0 modifier and kill the same mob, everybody gets 106.667, for a total of a <7% difference. Unless your group composition is such that a Ranger is TOTALLY redundant, is that really enough to deter you from grouping with one? I know it hasn't stopped me yet, but I'm curious to see if other people truly care.

The scenario you chose minimizes the impact of the hybrid exp penalty as much as is possible. Most groups are not full, and rarer yet is a case of nobody else having an exp penalty.

Any class that can solo, can exp significantly faster soloing then duoing with a hybrid. Given how much soloing goes on here, this scenario alone has more impact then full group scenario, and it isn't good for the community.

Not that these discussions actually matter, exp penalty will stay until that point in Velious when it finally became widely understood and was thus removed.

[Hamahakki]

Originally Posted by Tux [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The scenario you chose minimizes the impact of the hybrid exp penalty as much as is possible. Most groups are not full, and rarer yet is a case of nobody else having an exp penalty.

This is wrong - choosing a group of people with no exp penalty MAXIMIZES the penalty of choosing a hybrid over a non-penalty class, not minimizes it.

Consider the same example (640 exp mob) with a group of 5 people who have a 1.4 exp modifier.

If they add a 6th hybrid, they will be splitting the exp evenly for 106.67 exp apiece.

If they add a 1.0 exp mod class they will each be getting 112 exp, which is less than 5% more exp per person.

He picked the worst-case full-group scenario and it still came out to less than 7%.

The penalty, of course, is much more significant in a small group. The very good solo classes are going to earn less exp grouping with ANYONE. As a Ranger, Necromancer is not really the class you want to duo with (though it works fine). It's better to grab a Rogue/Warrior; you can duo with no downtime and they would be getting ZERO exp solo so they aren't going to care about the hybrid penalty.

[Tux]

Originally Posted by Hamahakki [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is wrong - choosing a group of people with no exp penalty MAXIMIZES the penalty of choosing a hybrid over a non-penalty class, not minimizes it.

We're talking about two different things. I'm talking about how much exp is lost on penalties, not how much exp a specific character in a group is taking.

By having a single hybrid in a full group the exp penalty is collectively minimal, as in how much it affects those you group with. If you're a cleric grouped with 5 hybrids it's ... bad.

[Palemoon]

So for better or for worse, yes, a percentage of people will rather group with another kind of DPS that wont bring a xp penalty with them.

I read in the wiki that zone ZEMS are altered from classic to reflect the classic "fog of war" if you will and keep us in the dark about ZEMS (like classic)

In the same vein, since we all know about class penalties and people ARE discriminating against rangers because of it, we should follow the classic rational and remove them.

When the knowledge of hybrid penalties became widespread and it left the hybrids shunned... the penalty was dropped. We are at that point of knowledge and discrimination now. Lets drop it.

Scenario A: You are preparing a group for a dungeon crawl, and you have one slot left to fill and since all your bases are covered it can be anything. Which is the LAST class you pick?

Answer: Ranger. Brings nothing to the group but average DPS and a huge xp penalty.

Or maybe I just want to play a Ranger on pvp and am just mad because i'll be just average as a class goes, but have to pay some huge xp penalty? you decide.

[Softcore PK]

Imo give halfling bonus to humans as should have been done in classic to start, take hybrid penalty away, give druids, shaman, necros, mages and wizards 40% penalty and.. maybe give rangers slight exp bonus, like rogues.

EDIT: Bards should keep 40% penalty, and maybe add enchanter to penalty list.