Best 4 person all caster/priest group

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We both agree the DPS is irrelevant.

If your goal is to kill things, dps is never irrelevant. Whether or not you “need” more is debatable. But remember the title of this thread is best FOUR person all caster group.

Something’s gotta fill the 4th.

1. Stack a third enchanter? Great dps but risk does increase. Never a bad choice.

2. Add a mage? Very solid dps plus some added side perks (a great backup tank that won’t “break” and cause mayhem, mod rods, malo etc)

3. Add a necro? Respectable but not great dps when not charming but has a massive toolkit to include backup rez and twitches and will still do more dps than the next choice.

4. Add a shaman? Meh dps. Has utility but is anything actually contributory other than malo? Not really. Pet sucks for dps but can take some punches if buffed (and the mob is slowed) so there is some minor value there.

None of the above are bad to add mind you but I there is a strong case to be made that option 2 would be ideal (balance of dps/utility, no added risk and stacking a malo). 1 is mega dps but you lose the extra pet debuffs and risk does go up. 3 very solid as well for reasons discussed above.

4? Not a bad pick but little actual additional value added.

[PlsNoBan]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If your goal is to kill things, dps is never irrelevant. Whether or not you “need” more is debatable. But remember the title of this thread is best FOUR person all caster group.

Something’s gotta fill the 4th.

1. Stack a third enchanter? Great dps but risk does increase. Never a bad choice.

2. Add a mage? Very solid dps plus some added side perks (a great backup tank that won’t “break” and cause mayhem, mod rods, malo etc)

3. Add a necro? Respectable but not great dps when not charming but has a massive toolkit to include backup rez and twitches and will still do more dps than the next choice.

4. Add a shaman? Meh dps. Has utility but is anything actually contributory other than malo? Not really. Pet sucks for dps but can take some punches if buffed (and the mob is slowed) so there is some minor value there.

None of the above are bad to add mind you but I there is a strong case to be made that option 2 would be ideal (balance of dps/utility, no added risk and stacking a malo). 1 is mega dps but you lose the extra pet debuffs and risk does go up. 3 very solid as well for reasons discussed above.

4? Not a bad pick but little actual additional value added.

Agree 100% with all of this. I've said since the beginning that the BEST option is more enchanters. It's always more enchanters. They're a completely broken class by any reasonable metric. Mage and Necro both bring more value to this setup than a shaman. Hell even a druid would be more valuable if grouping in an area with animal charm available. Besides a 2nd cleric or maybe wizard? shaman might be the least value of the casters with this group makeup.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If your goal is to kill things, dps is never irrelevant.

DPS does have diminishing returns, which is why it isn't always the best choice in group scenarios.

If your group has 100 DPS, it will take 80 seconds to kill a mob with 8000 HP.

If your group has 200 DPS, it will take 40 seconds to kill a mob with 8000 HP.

if your group has 400 DPS, it will take 20 seconds to kill a mob with 8000 HP.

A group of 4x Enchanters could do 400 DPS. However, everybody seems to agree Enchanter/Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric is a better option. This is because adding 2 more Enchanters to an Enchanter duo only saves 20 seconds per kill (half of what the first two Enchanters are bringing), but increases the chance of your group wiping significantly. In that case, safety wins over DPS, which is why you pick a Cleric as the fourth member.

Originally Posted by PlsNoBan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Perhaps the disagreement lies in you believing your unneeded utility is more important than extra DPS. I disagree heavily. Redundant utility has 0 value. Extra DPS (even if not needed) is more valuable.

I think so. From my years of experience I find safety to be better than a bit of extra DPS, because group wipes tend to cut play time short. This could end up costing you more time than what you saved with faster DPS. If your group was planning on playing for 4 hours, and quits after 2 due to a wipe, you lost 2 hours of play time. Perhaps you have played in groups where that doesn't happen as often. I think this is a good place to end the discussion. At this point we end up arguing about preference, and that is just a matter of opinion.

[Toxigen]

muh "data"

[Ripqozko]

Originally Posted by Toxigen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

muh "data"

hes your guildy too, oof

[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

From my years of experience I find safety to be better than a bit of extra DPS, because group wipes tend to cut play time short. This could end up costing you more time than what you saved with faster DPS. If your group was planning on playing for 4 hours, and quits after 2 due to a wipe, you lost 2 hours of play time. Perhaps you have played in groups where that doesn't happen as often. I think this is a good place to end the discussion. At this point the discussion becomes more about preference.

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think you slightly overvalue utility. That very well may be your experience, but I think on average most people want to level/kill as fast as possible and they will likely take more dps with a small chance of dying over more utility with almost no chance of dying. This is because this game isn't that hard, most of us have put in the hours to master it by now, and people just want to be efficient with their time. Having potentially wasted utility is not efficient. Having more dps is always efficient if you can avoid death, which generally you can. CRs also are relatively pretty easy on this server. Almost everybody has access to a rogue/necro/sk to help retrieve their corpse or if not people are usually pretty friendly and willing to help out.

We are back to where we were on page 52. It is clear you place a high value on utility. But I'm confident that most would prefer the extra DPS once minimum utility has been met.

There's no need to continue this discussion any further.

[PlsNoBan]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think so. From my years of experience I find safety to be better, since group wipes tend to cut play time short. This could end up costing you more time than what you saved with faster DPS. If your group was planning on playing for 4 hours, and quits after 2 due to a wipe, you lost 2 hours of play time. Perhaps you have played in groups where that doesn't happen as often. I think this is a good place to end the discussion. At this point the discussion becomes more about preference.

When I said my assumption is the group is good players that know how to play their class it was assumed there would be very very little to no wiping happening. I've run 2 charms in groups for 8+ hours multiple times with no singular deaths let alone full group wipes. You apparently have had groups with less skilled players overall and have experienced more wipes than I have. In this situation I can perhaps understand why you'd want extra safety to account for people fucking up. This is a different conversation than the one I was having. If you're playing in a group with people fucking up on a semi regular basis a shaman is probably better. But in that case I'd probably prefer a necro for emergency FD/rez recovery. If someone fucks up royally a shaman isn't gonna be able to save a wipe and your best option will be FDing a necro and EE rezzing the cleric.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by PlsNoBan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

When I said my assumption is the group is good players that know how to play their class it was assumed there would be very very little to no wiping happening. I've run 2 charms in groups for 8+ hours multiple times with no singular deaths let alone full group wipes. You apparently have had groups with less skilled players overall and have experienced more wipes than I have. In this situation I can perhaps understand why you'd want extra safety to account for people fucking up. This is a different conversation than the one I was having. If you're playing in a group with people fucking up on a semi regular basis a shaman is probably better. But in that case I'd probably prefer a necro for emergency FD/rez recovery. If someone fucks up royally a shaman isn't gonna be able to save a wipe and your best option will be FDing a necro and EE rezzing the cleric.

That is the other disagreement we have. I have been assuming the group is full of good players too. We are on the same page there. Obviously neither of us can prove which groups had "better" players, so there's not real point in going there.

I have played with highly skilled players and still wiped. In a game with random number generators, you can get unlucky. If you wipe at Fungi King due to a bad string of resists, there is a good chance another group comes in, or your group decides that is a good stopping point.

[Ripqozko]

Originally Posted by PlsNoBan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

When I said my assumption is the group is good players that know how to play their class it was assumed there would be very very little to no wiping happening. I've run 2 charms in groups for 8+ hours multiple times with no singular deaths let alone full group wipes. You apparently have had groups with less skilled players overall and have experienced more wipes than I have. In this situation I can perhaps understand why you'd want extra safety to account for people fucking up. This is a different conversation than the one I was having. If you're playing in a group with people fucking up on a semi regular basis a shaman is probably better. But in that case I'd probably prefer a necro for emergency FD/rez recovery. If someone fucks up royally a shaman isn't gonna be able to save a wipe and your best option will be FDing a necro and EE rezzing the cleric.

a good cleric can make up for bad enchanters anyways, shaman would be almost irrelevant when you have a good cleric that can root/stun and let enchanters do their thing.

[PlsNoBan]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That is the other disagreement we have. I have been assuming the group is full of good players too.

I have played with highly skilled players and still wiped. In a game with random number generators, you can get unlucky. If you wipe at Fungi King due to a bad string of resists, there is a good chance another group comes in, or your group decides that is a good stopping point.

A good group with 2 enchanters a cleric and a mage or necro isn't wiping at fungi king. Your definition of good is much lower than mine apparently. We have very different thresholds for what qualifies as a good player.