Best 4 person all caster/priest group

[Gloomlord]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Why are you guys so obsessed in getting him to admit he’s wrong? Once he picks an opinion, he will never change that. Maybe little facts here and there, like underestimating mage epic dps, but he has never changed an opinion about a debate that he started.

The facts are simple. Mages can put out high amounts of group dps barely doing any actions. Shamans have to wait to 60, and go apeshit clicking buttons to even remotely come close. No shaman is going off on the side root rotting with epic in a fast pace killing group unless you’re trying to win this thread.

Nobody in their right mind is inviting a shaman for a group dps role over a mage if minimum utility is met.

More dps is always good, even if the seconds saved per kill starts to lessen per kill.

Wasted utility is always bad, unless your group sucks.

There’s no reason to continue this debate.

I guess we're obsessed because we know he'll have the gall to think he's won after we tire of him and leave.

Perhaps a futile gesture, I admit, but I think this might be a microcosm about how you should try to prevent a person holding an irrational belief in society.

[PlsNoBan]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I have already shown that the DPS a Mage brings is irrelevant due to the DPS breakpoints and respawn timers here: https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...postcount=2399

1: This proves nothing other than 1 data set says mage DPS will kill mobs x amount faster and x is not large enough to gain y more spawns in z amount of time at said camp. This does not prove irrelevance. Killing things faster is relevant even if it means you get 0 extra PH or named. I assume you would take a rogue over a paladin for a DPS spot in your group even if no extra named/PH were gained right? Why is that?

2: You have yet to provide any data whatsoever or even provide a sound argument for why a shamans redundant heals and utility is beneficial to the group in any meaningful way outside of very few niche camps/mobs that you mention. You cannot heal a full HP target. Not to mention your heal slows the target which is detrimental to the main source of your groups damage (the charm pets). Any decent cleric is not going to run out of mana ever healing in a group with 2 good enchanters. There are already 2 people that can slow almost as good as you. 2 other players with as good or better CC. A mage provides similar malo. What does shaman bring that this group needs besides mediocre dps and slightly better slow/malo that is fairly negligible? The mage pet is tankier than yours. The mage pet provides respectable DPS with no mana requirement. There is literally nothing shaman brings that matters or is better than a mage/necro/enchanter for the 4th slot in ALMOST every situation. Again you have provided 0 data to support your claims here. The only data you've ever brought is strictly related to DPS between shaman and mage. All the data points to mage and you stubbornly are still trying to prove why shaman is better based solely on your preference for unnecessary extra "safety"

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Why are you guys so obsessed in getting him to admit he’s wrong? Once he picks an opinion, he will never change that. Maybe little facts here and there, like underestimating mage epic dps, but he has never changed an opinion about a debate that he started.

The facts are simple. Mages can put out high amounts of group dps barely doing any actions. Shamans have to wait to 60, and go apeshit clicking buttons to even remotely come close. No shaman is going off on the side root rotting with epic in a fast pace killing group unless you’re trying to win this thread.

Nobody in their right mind is inviting a shaman for a group dps role over a mage if minimum utility is met.

More dps is always good, even if the seconds saved per kill starts to lessen per kill.

Wasted utility is always bad, unless your group sucks.

There’s no reason to continue this debate.

I agree with you they are obsessed with getting me to admit I am wrong for no reason. It is strange.

You are incorrect that I never change my opinion. That is just another straw man.

This idea DPS is always better is incorrect, because you are restricted by respawn timers. If you kill Fungi King 9 seconds faster, you are still waiting 27 minutes for the next respawn. You would need to kill Fungi King 200 more times in a single session to get another spawn. That is a continuous session of 100 hours. The only two reasons you bring DPS is for safety (faster kills means less damage taken), and getting more kills per hour. If the assumption is your group never wipes, then the added safety of killing the mob faster is irrelevant. At that point you are simply left with DPS to increase kills per hour. If you aren't increasing kills per hour either, DPS offers nothing. A Shaman's broader toolkit gives you more options for camps, and grants you greater safety than simply taking a tiny bit less damage due to a 4 second faster kill.

If you are killing 20 mobs per 30 minutes with a Shaman, and 20 mobs per 30 minutes with a Mage, the Shaman simply offers the group more, even if you choose not to use it.

The rest of the long posts by other users are just more nonsense and not worth replying to.

[Gloomlord]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I agree with you they are obsessed with getting me to admit I am wrong for no reason. It is strange.

This person wasn't defending you, halfwit.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Gloomlord [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This person wasn't defending you, halfwit.

Crede saying you are obsessed with proving me wrong isn't beneficial to your side, silly. It is true, and I agree with him on that point.

[Gloomlord]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Him saying you are obsessed with proving me wrong isn't beneficial to your side, silly.

Except he just concurred with us about mage and shaman.

He's only saying you're a lost cause not worth arguing with. You took his comment as the perfect opportunity to "stick it to the trolls", without really looking at what his post implies.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Gloomlord [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Except he just concurred with us about mage and shaman.

He's only saying you're a lost cause not worth arguing with. You took his comment as the perfect opportunity to "stick it to the trolls", without really looking at what his post implies.

I read his post. You don't need to put words in his mouth.

Him disagreeing with me doesn't mean he is correct. Just like you disagreeing with me doesn't mean you are correct. We have gone over this before. I know you feel comfortable with safety in numbers, but that is irrelevant to the topic at hand.

He was correct you are obsessed with proving me wrong. It is why you have clearly lost objectivity in the discussion. You don't care what the best group composition is, you just want to prove me wrong, and will do anything to achieve this goal.

[Gloomlord]

Then stop deceiving yourself.

Shaman solo DPS capabilities is not a case for its group DPS capabilities. You have lost objectivity in your pathetic desire to avert the truth: shamans are mediocre at DPS.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Gloomlord [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Then stop deceiving yourself.

Shaman solo DPS capabilities is not a case for its group DPS capabilities. You have lost objectivity in your pathetic desire to avert the truth: shamans are mediocre at DPS.

The only person deceiving themselves is you. You just keep saying my data is invalid, but you haven't provided one shred of evidence to back this up. Just saying something doesn't make it true.

You are convincing yourself this is the case by repeating it over and over again, rather than actually proving it with data. It is a very obvious self deception technique on your part.

It is part of your quest to prove me wrong at any cost.

The discussion is about a four man group. As long as the group's DPS hits the correct breakpoint, it doesn't matter which class does more DPS. If you are killing 20 mobs every 30 minutes with group composition A, and you are killing 20 mobs every 30 minutes with group composition B, DPS is no longer helping.

There are only two things that matter in Everquest when you boil it down: Kills per hour and number of camps your group can do. To maximize your gameplay, you want to increase both kills per hour and number of camps you can do. If a Mage offers you 50 kills per hour and 30 camp options, and a Shaman offers you 50 kills per hour and 35 camp options, the Shaman is better.

[Chortles Snortles]

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