sk starting points

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Rip thanks for posting your Magelo, thats a well geared toon with a nice balance of stats rather than one which just spams one particular philosophy. It’s really interesting to see how everything is just scraping cap with buffs.

I think it does indicate the caution of following minmax advice when not using the supposed min max race option (dump int as str/sta cap easily).

I think most would agree that when doing self found or very lightly twinked (ie just a weapon and haste) characters for the sake of levelling up another alt rather than having a 60 toon to play str is by far the best option. However you’ve managed to demonstrate that for twink or bis putting points into melee stats when not playing a giant race isn’t necessarily going to be quite so wasteful as the community previously believed.

Statistically speaking STR and STA are easier to cap with BiS gear in Velious. If you don't believe me, you can simply look at https://wiki.project1999.com/Categor...ight_Equipment and check the stat distributions across the items. You can see my example Magelo here: https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:EruditeSKMan . STR is also easy to cap with buffs, long before full BiS gear, as you can get +235 STR from Avatar + Focus of Spirit + Maniacal Strength.

Ripqozko's Magelo (which is awesome btw) simply shows what I assume everybody already knows:

There are thousands of possible equipment combinations for each class.

You can find builds that cap any stat long before full BiS gear. That doesn't prove anything, especially since many of those builds would be considered to be objectively bad for the class using them. It doesn't change the statistical distribution of stats on gear. P99 is a locked server, so we are not going to get new items that can change the statistical distributions.

As far as I am aware, most players do not pre-plan out which BiS (or near BiS) gear they are going to get. This happens organically. That means when creating a new character, you want to put your points into the statistically hardest stat to cap for a Shadowknight, which is INT. This gives you the highest chance of maximizing your starting stats.

If you DO pre-plan the gear for your character, then put your starting stats into whichever stats will achieve your goals with the pre-planned gear. I don't believe OP is going to be doing this, so it doesn't apply in this case.

[Ripqozko]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Rip thanks for posting your Magelo, thats a well geared toon with a nice balance of stats rather than one which just spams one particular philosophy. It’s really interesting to see how everything is just scraping cap with buffs.

I think it does indicate the caution of following minmax advice when not using the supposed min max race option (dump int as str/sta cap easily).

I think most would agree that when doing self found or very lightly twinked (ie just a weapon and haste) characters for the sake of levelling up another alt rather than having a 60 toon to play str is by far the best option. However you’ve managed to demonstrate that for twink or bis putting points into melee stats when not playing a giant race isn’t necessarily going to be quite so wasteful as the community previously believed.

Hey thanks for taking the time to look and yes that was my point. If I had gone int I’d be even more sta starved. Will I get it eventually? Sure but my choice for sta on a DE isn’t a waste. I appreciate you noticing.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Ripqozko [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Hey thanks for taking the time to look and yes that was my point. If I had gone int I’d be even more sta starved. Will I get it eventually? Sure but my choice for sta on a DE isn’t a waste. I appreciate you noticing.

I don't think anybody is saying it's a waste. Perhaps this is why people are getting defensive? They think people are attacking their starting stat choices?

Unless you dump your points into WIS, you will get some benefit from STR, STA, DEX, AGI, CHA, or INT. It won't be a waste.

OP should know statistically which starting stat is best, and that is INT based on all the available data thus far. The exception to this is an SSF character, or your first character on a fresh server. STR is going to be better in those cases. OP seems willing to twink their character, so this doesn't apply.

Nobody is forcing OP to pick INT, nor would I call their decision a waste if they went with STR.

[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Statistically speaking STR and STA are easier to cap with BiS gear in Velious. If you don't believe me, you can simply look at https://wiki.project1999.com/Categor...ight_Equipment and check the stat distributions across the items. You can see my example Magelo here: https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:EruditeSKMan . STR is also easy to cap with buffs, long before full BiS gear, as you can get +235 STR from Avatar + Focus of Spirit + Maniacal Strength.

Ripqozko's Magelo (which is awesome btw) simply shows what I assume everybody already knows:

There are thousands of possible equipment combinations for each class.

You can find builds that cap any stat long before full BiS gear. That doesn't prove anything, especially since many of those builds would be considered to be objectively bad for the class using them. It doesn't change the statistical distribution of stats on gear. P99 is a locked server, so we are not going to get new items that can change the statistical distributions.

As far as I am aware, most players do not pre-plan out which BiS (or near BiS) gear they are going to get. This happens organically. That means when creating a new character, you want to put your points into the statistically hardest stat to cap for a Shadowknight, which is INT. This gives you the highest chance of maximizing your starting stats.

If you DO pre-plan the gear for your character, then put your starting stats into whichever stats will achieve your goals with the pre-planned gear. I don't believe OP is going to be doing this, so it doesn't apply in this case.

You can't simultaneously claim that players do not plan out their character while at the same time suggesting that they pick a stat that lends itself to the greatest benefit in the absolute end game planning(INT) which likely over 99% of SKs will never get to due to the sheer amount of time/dedication/difficulty involved.

Ripq's SK is geared better than probably 90% of sks, and he still can't even cap STA.

This isn't a tell me the min/max stat thread for sks. This is an iksar sk just starting out curious about their different options. You are factually foregoing other various benefits by focusing on INT until the absolute end of the game which odds are you will never hit anyway.

I think INT is a clear choice for ogres/trolls. For the rest of the SK races, I think STR or STA are valid cases. There's really no wrong answer here, since we do not know ultimately what OPs final goals are, we can only offer our advice and let them choose what is best for their particular situation. It's not helpful to anyone, including OP, by consistently trying to force your INT preference on this thread.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You can't simultaneously claim that players do not plan out their character while at the same time suggesting that they pick a stat that lends itself to the greatest benefit in the absolute end game planning(INT) which likely over 99% of SKs will never get to due to the sheer amount of time/dedication/difficulty involved.

Ripq's SK is geared better than probably 90% of sks, and he still can't even cap STA.

I can say both. I am willing to bet most people do not build a Magelo first and set up their stats based on the results of the Magelo. They acquire gear organically, which may or may not cap a certain stat. Statistically speaking INT is the hardest stat to cap for an SK, so you have the lowest probability of capping that stat with class relevant gear. It really isn't more difficult than that.

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This isn't a tell me the min/max stat thread for sks. This is an iksar sk just starting out curious about their different options. You are factually foregoing other various benefits by focusing on INT until the absolute end of the game which odds are you will never hit anyway.

Where did OP say he didn't want the min/max option? You do not get to put words in OP's mouth to try and win the debate, or stifle other posters.

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think INT is a clear choice for ogres/trolls. For the rest of the SK races, I think STR or STA are valid cases. There's really no wrong answer here, since we do not know ultimate what OPs final goals are, we can only offer our advice and let them choose what is best for their particular situation. It's not helpful to anyone, including OP, by consistently trying to force your INT preference on this thread.

Not everything is an opinion or preference. I am not saying INT is the best stat due to preference. There is an objectively best and worst stat based on the facts and statistics. INT is the best starting stat in most cases. That doesn't mean OP will be wrong if he chooses to not pick INT. We all agree starting stats are not going to significantly affect OP's experience.

I am not sure why people get so offended at the facts of the game. It is a very strange occurrence on these forums.

[Toxigen]

Troxx is correct here. Let it die, DSM.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Toxigen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Troxx is correct here. Let it die, DSM.

I am sorry, but denying facts is not the correct approach here. You simply muddy the waters, and make it impossible for people to find the correct answers.

INT is the best starting stat for an SK unless you are making a self found character, or it is your first character on a server.

To counter the idea that STR is the best starting stat, I have provided multiple pieces of evidence:

I have provided evidence showing the statistical probabilities of stats on gear for SK's, an example of this can be found here: https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:EruditeSKMan. This shows that STR and STA are more common on Velious BiS gear. You will cap STR and STA, while not capping INT. This is on an Erudite, who has the highest INT in the game for SK's.

I have shown an Iksar SK can get a large amount of STR in easily acquired gear, this can be found here: https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:TestIksarSK. This shows that you can get enough STR to deal good damage and carry around lots of loot without having to raid.

I have provided in-game evidence showing an example of how much DPS +20 STR will give you, that can be found here: https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=211. This shows a small DPS increase from +20 STR, which means you probably aren't going to be getting a significant boost to kills per hour while leveling.

I have shown that you can get +235 STR with https://wiki.project1999.com/Avatar + https://wiki.project1999.com/Focus_of_Spirit + https://wiki.project1999.com/Maniacal_Strength. This means you can cap STR long before full BiS gear in a number of buff combinations.

I am 100% open to admitting I am wrong if people can provide evidence that rebuts mine.

However, you do not simply get to say "I am right, you are wrong, and I need no evidence". That isn't helpful, and it confuses people.

Games are built on rules and math. There are objective answers to questions like this. So far, the evidence points to INT being the best starting stat. This has more credibility than a mere preference or opinion, as it is backed up by evidence.

[Jimjam]

I’m gonna take the real world evidence of a very well geared 60 non-giant sk that actually exists and gets played over untested hypothetical builds. Sorry.

Dsm, I also note your sk requires PE to cap sta?

You seem to have selected unbuffed str over int, as it is far over what is needed to cap with buffs. This demonstrates acknowledgement of the value of unbuffed str and that even you don’t take for granted ms/fos. Especially as sk can cast major shielding instead to pump ac/mr.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I’m gonna take the real world evidence of a very well geared 60 non-giant sk that actually exists and gets played over untested hypothetical builds. Sorry.

Dsm, I also note your sk requires PE to cap sta?

You seem to have selected unbuffed str over int, as it is far over what is needed to cap with buffs. This demonstrates acknowledgement of the value of unbuffed str and that even you don’t take for granted ms/fos. Especially as sk can cast major shielding instead to pump ac/mr.

The issue with your logic here is you are completely missing how statistics work.

Nobody in this thread has denied that you can cap one stat over another with certain combinations of gear. I do not deny it either.

The only thing that matters is the statistical probability of capping a stat. This is because most players acquire gear organically. You don't know what gear you are going to end up with when you first start your character. Just because a probability is low, it doesn't mean you can't have it occur. INT is the hardest stat to cap statistically speaking using relevant SK gear, and all the data is available on the wiki to show this is the case.

Saying "it can happen" is like telling someone they will win the lottery. It is possible, but statistically unlikely. This is why you do not advise someone to spend there whole life savings on lottery tickets.

As for buffs, you can easily show that you cannot get +235 INT, which means it is also harder to cap in that scenario.

You are incorrect about your assessment of my SK's stats. My SK has a lot more STR because tank gear tends to have STR on it. Trolls also have higher starting STR. My Magelo supports my position that relevant SK gear is more likely to have STR on it, instead of INT. I also put my starting stats into INT.

[Jimjam]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The issue with your logic here is you are completely missing how statistics work.

statistics can prove anything - I think you are so focused on statistics you are overlooking practical reality.

Nobody in this thread has denied that you can cap one stat over another with certain combinations of gear. I do not deny it either.

The only thing that matters is the statistical probability of capping a stat. This is because most players acquire gear organically. You don't know what gear you are going to end up with when you first start your character. Just because a probability is low, it doesn't mean you can't have it occur. INT is the hardest stat to cap statistically speaking using relevant SK gear, and all the data is available on the wiki to show this is the case.

Again, disagreed. What matters is how characters end up geared, not statistics. Statistics may guide creation and gearing decisions but if those decisions don’t meet their objectives then the statistics must have overlooked some assumptions.

Saying "it can happen" is like telling someone they will win the lottery. It is possible, but statistically unlikely. This is why you do not advise someone to spend there whole life savings on lottery tickets.

Rip’s Magelo is very top end. Yours is decent. Yet both have issues capping core tank stats with/without buffs.

As for buffs, you can easily show that you cannot get +235 INT, which means it is also harder to cap in that scenario.

You are incorrect about your assessment of my SK's stats. My SK has a lot more STR because tank gear tends to have STR on it. Trolls also have higher starting STR. My Magelo supports my position that relevant SK gear is more likely to have STR on it, instead of INT. I also put my starting stats into INT.

I thought you said having high str gave the ability to focus on +int gear though? Maybe you need to follow your own advice more aggressively if you really value int over str/sta?