Iksar Shaman - Solo Challenges?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I’ve got no clue what either of you are talking about [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Diablo 4 Season 3 (Toxigen) and Diablo 2 Resurrected ladder (myself). Diablo 4 and 2 have rotating seasons (called ladder in Diablo 2), where you play for x months and then your characters get dumped into a non-season bucket so you can still play them. Then you start all over when the new season/ladder comes out. It's very similar in concept to merging Green and Blue together (non-season) and then creating a new season where everyone starts over (Green 2.0).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

With regards to Troxx's specific point on stun rate. I'll use my Monk's logs from levels 12-52 to get some hard data to back up the rates. He almost exclusively fought unslowed warrior mobs via face tanking in twinked gear.

I was kicked or bashed a total of 21044 times, regardless of a hit or miss. Mobs attempted to kick me 6718 times, the rest were bashes. This means there is roughly a 70% chance to be bashed, and a 30% chance to be kicked.

6157 bashes hit me, and I got 1661 "You are Stunned!" messages. This means there is a 25% chance to be stunned from a successful bash.

These numbers support what someone like https://wiki.project1999.com/Sakuragi%27s_Warrior_Guide says with regards to the bash rates using "napkin math". He also says there is a 75% chance to be bashed instead of kicked, and a 25% chance to be stunned (50% hit rate and 50% stun rate). This shows that if you have the correct formula, you can indeed get the averages, and real data backs this up. Claiming "napkin math" has no relevance is clearly false.

1661/21044 = ~7.9% chance to be stunned per kick/bash attempt on my Monk. 1613 missed bashes were blocks specifically and 257 were ripostes, so that means the chance to be stunned on a Shaman is a bit higher. Roughly half of all attempts were not hits, so we can just divide 1870 by 2 for simplicity's sake. 1661 / 20,109 = ~8.25% chance to be stunned per kick/bash attempt on a Shaman. Realistically it is probably closer to 8.5% since Monks have better dodge skill than Shamans.

An 8.5% chance to avoid being stunned in the first minute of a fight when the mob is unslowed is pretty good. That means 1 in every 12 tough fights you are preventing a guaranteed interrupt from occurring when you are applying your first slow. A Shaman who gets their first slow interrupted is taking hundreds of extra damage from an unslowed mob. Conversely, Iksar/Troll Regeneration is giving you 80 HP in the first minute of a fight, which has a much lower percent chance to save you if things go south. That is 1/3rd of a single max hit from a WW Dragon.

This is why FSI is the Min/Max option for Shamans at level 60 with Torpor. An 8.5% chance to avoid a guaranteed slow interrupt in the first minute of a fight is going to increase the odds of your survival more than the 80 HP you get via Troll/Iksar Regen in the first minute of a fight. It is the same reason why Vindi BP is BiS, and people give their Fungi Tunics to alts once they get Torpor.

[bcbrown]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

With regards to Troxx's specific point on stun rate. I'll use my Monk's logs from levels 12-52 to get some hard data to back up the rates. He almost exclusively fought unslowed warrior mobs via face tanking in twinked gear.

It's super helpful when you provide concrete numbers backed up by logs like this. Can you provide a youtube video of your shaman where FSI is applicable? Ideally one where at least one slow is resisted. If it's one where you could also post the log in a text file, that would be best, but just the video would be helpful.

I don't want to do further analysis on a random video on your channel, as you may have reasons to call that fight atypical in some way, which is why I'm asking you to nominate a fight to analyze.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's super helpful when you provide concrete numbers backed up by logs like this. Can you provide a youtube video of your shaman where FSI is applicable? Ideally one where at least one slow is resisted. If it's one where you could also post the log in a text file, that would be best, but just the video would be helpful.

I don't want to do further analysis on a random video on your channel, as you may have reasons to call that fight atypical in some way, which is why I'm asking you to nominate a fight to analyze.

I usually do provide concrete numbers backed up by videos/logs, or I am referencing concrete numbers I have posted many times already, or I am referencing proven game formulas that can be backed up by videos/logs. Often times it gets drowned out in troll posts unfortunately. Many posters (especially trolls) generally do not post concrete numbers to back up their points by comparison.

As for your question about when FSI is applicable:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEgFcImQ9XU - A fight where I marked all of the places where a bash occurred in the description. There were 12 occasions. The number of bashes is lower because the mob was slowed. FSI would have prevented at least one stun statistically using the data from my previous post: https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=267

https://youtu.be/igpbLuNe0ls?feature=shared&t=438 - At this mark I was bashed by Bravatar like half a second before Slow finished casting. If that bash had a stun component, I would have lost a full 6 seconds of cast time, and not have him slowed. I would need to attempt to slow again and take more unslowed damage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLhe3KQXke0 - Here is a video where my first attempt at slowing was resisted, even after malo. I landed the second slow, and the dragon bashed me right after. If I was a bit slower to react on casting the second slow or had gotten a fizzle, I could have been down two slows if that bash had a stun component.

In all three of these videos, Iksar/Troll Regeneration wouldn't have helped at all during the preslow phase. It would have only saved me 30 seconds of recovery time after the fight, as you get 1200 HP from Iksar/Troll Regeneration over 15 minutes, which is the equivalent of 1 Torpor.

[Jimjam]

How did you control for sources of stun beside frontal bashes?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

How did you control for sources of stun beside frontal bashes?

With the logs from my Monk? Easy, I never fought cleric mobs with him, or mobs that have a spell that stun. My logs back this up. That is why I said this at the beginning of my previous post:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

He almost exclusively fought unslowed warrior mobs via face tanking in twinked gear.

The mobs that were not warriors were shamans. I leveled on Crystal Cavern orcs in the low 30s, which included killing the oracles.

[Jimjam]

What about rear strikes?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What about rear strikes?

Minimal. If I needed to end a fight, I would FD instead of turn and run. Also not relevant. The chance to stun is the same regardless, and a properly played Ogre Shaman would not willingly put their backs to a mob while slowing.

[Troxx]

Thanks for the numbers. Though not strictly controlled and though there is a chance erroneous occurrences (ie spell stuns) - they are likely negligible. Not worth splitting hairs over. Did you ever hunt mobs like sonic bats with a stun proc? Probably not but worth asking.

1). Good to know that common knowledge is correct- the majority of landed bashes do not stun.

2) Also good to know that you got stunned 41.525 times on average per level. Or another way of thinking about it you spent 41-85 seconds being melee stunned per level on unslowed mobs.

I’m curious enough now that I will go pull up some logs of one of my melee to look at the average duration of a single stun.

If a shaman were leveling and with a similar stun rate, reduce the number of stuns in a manner that correlates for the mob being slowed … oh and all that time playing a shaman where you weren’t face tanking (groups/duos, root rot, pet tanking). A shaman leveling will not be face tanking unslowed mobs from 12-52 the same 100% of the time.

We’re making good progress. Now show us some situations where your circumstances were tenuous enough that a brief stun would have a meaningful impact on fight outcome.

Bear in mind that we already know that the botb shaman soloist (barbarian) had all that success without FSI.

Keep it up (not sarcastic here). I’m interested to see what you come up with.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Keep it up (not sarcastic here). I’m interested to see what you come up with.

Thank you for a serious post. I also appreciate it, I am not being sarcastic.

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Thanks for the numbers. Though not strictly controlled and though there is a chance erroneous occurrences (ie spell stuns) - they are likely negligible. Not worth splitting hairs over. Did you ever hunt mobs like sonic bats with a stun proc? Probably not but worth asking.

No problem! No, I did not hunt sonic bats. My leveling route was FoB/Kurns -> Highkeep Guards -> Crystal Caverns -> Tower of Frozen Shadow (Floor 3 and then Floor 6) -> Bloodgills -> Kelethin Guards (current location).

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We’re making good progress. Now show us some situations where your circumstances were tenuous enough that a brief stun would have a meaningful impact on fight outcome.

I already did with my previous post https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=273. Look at the Bravatar video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igpbLuNe0ls&t=438s . I was bashed right before my Slow landed. I had taken ~20% of my total life in damage from Bravatar when he wasn't slowed. If I had to cast another slow while he was unslowed, that could have taken another ~20% of my life total, which means I would be at 60% life when the fight started. 160 HP from two minutes of Troll/Iksar Regeneration while pulling is ~6% of my life total by comparison. So in this instance FSI saved 20% life vs 6% life via Troll/Iksar Regeneration. This is further supported by this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLhe3KQXke0 - where casting malo + 2x slows caused me to take roughly 40% damage. I was bashed right after my second slow. If that bash had a stun component and I was a bit slower at casting slow (or had a fizzle), there is a good chance I would have needed to try casting slow again.

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Bear in mind that we already know that the botb shaman soloist (barbarian) had all that success without FSI.

Everybody agrees racials are not required on a Shaman. Nor have I ever said they were required. Everybody agrees Barbarians can do the same content. We are simply looking at which racial is the Min/Max option. You can objectively determine which racial is best, even if it isn't needed to do content. This information is useful for people who like to Min/Max for fun. I am not trying to get people to regret their race choices or anything sinister like that. I just want the correct information to be out there for people interested in it.