sk starting points

[Ripqozko]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is factually not true: https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:EruditeSKMan

You can cap STR and STA on an Erudite/Dark Elf SK with just BiS gear, and no buffs. I have the proof.

You simply need another BiS item to cap your STA, and there are multiple options for you. Vulak arms are a great example.

If you want something easier to obtain, https://wiki.project1999.com/Onyx_Chain_Sleeves will work for you too.

Ok man even when I present ya with stuff ya say well ya just need one more bis , when most can’t even achieve what I have. I already cap int and ya not acknowledging it.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Ripqozko [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Ok man even when I present ya with stuff ya say well ya just need one more bis , when most can’t even achieve what I have. I already cap int and ya not acknowledging it.

You can cap INT before STA with non BiS gear too. That doesn't mean the gear choices that lead you to this scenario are ideal.

It is factually true that Velious raid gear for tanks has more STR and STA than INT in most cases. You can simply look at the wiki pages for SK gear if you do not believe me.

This means it is easier to obtain enough gear to cap STA and STR instead of INT. This is a fact, which can be proven by looking at the items available in the game.

[Ripqozko]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You can cap INT before STA with non BiS gear too. That doesn't mean the gear choices that lead you to this scenario are ideal.

It is factually true that Velious raid gear for tanks has more STR and STA than INT in most cases. You can simply look at the wiki pages for SK gear if you do not believe me.

This means it is easier to obtain enough gear to cap STA and STR instead of INT factually speaking.

You said int is harder than sta to cap, I’m presenting factual info and you just shit on it.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Ripqozko [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You said int is harder than sta to cap, I’m presenting factual info and you just shit on it.

If I provided you a Magelo that has nothing but INT items on an SK, would you say that is a good setup, just because it proves the point that INT can be capped before STR and STA? No, you would say the setup is bad, because I am putting a bunch of gear on my tank that doesn't have AC, Resists, HP, etc.

The reality is there are only a few items in the game for each slot that are considered BiS. Statistically speaking, Velious raid gear that fits the BiS profile will have STR and STA, not INT. This means you have a higher probability of capping those stats first.

Because there are so many gear combinations, you can only go off of the probabilities. Of course you can end up with a slightly different setup, but unless you planned out exactly which gear you were going to get, you don't actually know what setup you will end up with when you start your character.

[Ripqozko]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If I provided you a Magelo that has nothing but INT items on an SK, would you say that is a good setup, just because it proves the point that INT can be capped before STR and STA? No, you would say the setup is bad, because I am putting a bunch of gear on my tank that doesn't have AC, Resists, HP, etc.

The reality is there are only a few items in the game for each slot that are considered BiS. Statistically speaking, Velious raid gear that fits the BiS profile will have STR and STA, not INT. This means you have a higher probability of capping those stats first.

Because there are so many gear combinations, you can only go off of the probabilities. Of course you can end up with a slightly different setup, but unless you planned out exactly which gear you were going to get, you don't actually know what setup you will end up with when you start your character.

Ok I give up, you win whatever you said is right and I’m wrong. Take care I’m done.

[Lune]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There is no way to measure a "Worthwhile DPS increase". To some that could be 2 dps, 5 dps, 10 dps, 20 dps, etc. Where do you draw the boundary? It all depends on the user. The best you can do is present information and let people decide what they want to do.

This thread has shown what we have already known about STR for years. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove. The advantages of each starting stat are clear and obvious to all. STR is great if you never plan to cap it. If you do end up capping it, that's ok too, your char won't be ruined, you might have just missed out on some extra mana in the end. But if you are trying to make the best magelo possible, then yea, go INT. It does offer some leveling benefits as well, which is why I recommended INT to check most of the boxes, but if you are trying to maximize the leveling process then STR is probably your best move.

Put this to rest already.

Yea, this was our conclusion eighty pages ago. Only DSM hasn't gotten with the picture but that's okay as he never will.

As stated, the important caveat is that very, very few people who roll an SK are ever going to get to 60 with BiS raid gear, especially OP who wants to roll an ikky and play around with greenmist.

The leveling benefits of INT are extremely minor. But yea, INT if you're sure you're gonna get to 60 and get some sweet gear.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The leveling benefits of INT are extremely minor

The benefits of STR are also extremely minor, if you agree starting stats are not relevant. This isn't a point in your favor.

OP can get all the STR they need from EC gear.

[Troxx]

Everything important that needed to be said was said by page 3-4. The last 20-25 pages has mostly just been DSM trying to tell everyone else that they are all wrong and he is right.

It has been established that:

-Str will result in more DPS.
-Str will result in shorter fights.
-Str will improve carrying capacity.
-most knight alts won’t statistically make it to 60
-Very few players will ever be seeing BiS gear unless they are already one of those extreme raiders working on their next twink toy alt
-Iksars SKs have terrible starting str for a melee
-Iksars won’t ever cap their str without buffs unless in BiS gear
-Iksars SKs at 60 with reasonable gear for level 60 (best EC, group gear, velious quest armor, and a few raid pieces) will likely still not hit str cap without some fairly massive shaman buffs
-All melees will always want more strength all the time right up to that 255 cap

These are all known variables.

What is also known:

-mana recovery (med, buffs, FT) for ROUTINE situations is the ONLY important factor in mana actions per minute.
-emergency mana recovery (twitch, mod rods) for extraordinary situations is the next in the conga line
-a bigger mana pool DOES NOT give you more mana actions per time, it just allows you to get an extra spell off in extraordinary circumstances where you otherwise would have run out. It may also let you go just a tad longer between med breaks, but your med breaks will be longer.

Seriously, anyone who has played a knight knows that you’ll spend 99.9% of your active play/fighting time somewhere between 10-95% mana and 85% of that time between maybe 25-85 mana. Mana pool becomes more import for clerics in a cheal chain, spot healers starting from full on raids, wizards expecting to start the raid burn at 100m and maybe enchanters doing some baller hard content solo.

For knights (especially shadow knights) you have to do some SERIOUS theorycrafting with worst case scenarios or hat trick solo artist crap with already stellar gear before you can come up with a scenario where the shadow knight having 200 more mana was literally the reason for success where failure was otherwise gonna happen. 200 mana at 60 is basically maybe 1 extra Drain Soul for a 338 heal.

For those “never gonna actually happen” scenarios - simply having a 10 dose wort pot available provides a much more significant safety net. If you needed that extra 200 mana to land a FD - serious errors in judgement and poor play are the culprit, not a lack of a slightly larger mana pool.


If we knew that this person was taking his iksar sk to level 60 with BiS gear and they only cared about final endgame stats, yes intelligence is the answer. If a troll or ogre, 100% intelligence all the way.

As much as I would love to see some parses from DSM on something other than a level 5 turtle (cough cough) - even his lil Mr Turtle parses showed a 4.3% increase in dps with a 20 strength difference. Confident though I am a bigger difference would be against a level-appropriate target, 4.3% is actually significant enough to settle the issue.

If you as a tank thing you could do to make you take 4.3% less damage … oh lord we as tanks would be all over it.

The primary jobs of any tank (in order)
1) hold aggro (easy for knights)
2) not die and don’t take too much damage (easy with level/content-appropriate gear)
3) help it die faster. Faster kills is more xp. Faster kills is shorter fights and less damage taken
3*) if you’re a knight - the smattering of other cool things your spells let you do. Situationally this may take precedence over 3 - even mid-fight.

At least for paladins an extra 200 mana might allow you to toss a HoT on self/other for an emergency 700-825 heal. Even then, as a paladin haven’t had a single case where a 200 deeper max mana pool would have made the difference.


Everything important has already been said. Knowing how these threads predictably play out when DSM is on a roll trying to napkin math why he is right and everyone else is wrong …. we’re headed for another 50-page’r.

Tally ho!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

...
Everything important has already been said. Knowing how these threads predictably play out when DSM is on a roll trying to napkin math why he is right and everyone else is wrong …. we’re headed for another 50-page’r.

Your contribution to this thread so far has been a parse that you claim is invalid, and silly gifs. Do you think people will believe you if you just keep posting nonsense? The only laughable napkin math in this thread was here: https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=203 . There is no reason for you to believe that you will get a 16% damage boost on another weapon with +20 STR simply due to a single parse showing a 4 DPS difference.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=211 - This post that I wrote has two videos with log evidence for the DPS differences between having 20 STR and not having 20 STR. This is not napkin math by any stretch of the imagination, and is more evidence than everybody who has posted in this thread combined.

My data currently shows an average of 1.5 DPS gained with +20 STR. This will probably be lower on lower level characters with worse gear, unless someone can provide evidence otherwise.

Simply saying STR gives you more DPS and shortens the fight is misleading, because it is currently shown that these DPS gains aren't large enough to affect a casual player in a meaningful way, especially a twinked one.

The facts still stand:

1. INT is the hardest stat to cap on an SK, as shown here: https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:EruditeSKMan
2. STR is the easiest stat to cap in the game, as you can get +235 STR from Avatar + Focus of Spirit + Maniacal Strength.
3. Everybody in this thread agrees starting stats are largely irrelevant, including Troxx.
4. If starting stats are largely irrelevant, you are also admitting the 1.5 DPS or less gained from +20 STR is also largely irrelevant.

The interesting thing is nobody disagrees with the facts above if you look at their posts. It should be trivial to conclude that INT is the right choice, simply due to it providing a benefit for the longest period of time.

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Knowing how these threads predictably play out when DSM is on a roll trying to napkin math why he is right and everyone else is wrong ….

And, as anticipated, DSM replies in his most predictable manner.

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]