Best 4 person all caster/priest group

[Headbusta]

I have a pocket raid GG

[Troxx]

Torpor is only good because the class that can use it can cannibalize their hp into mana and turn that mana efficiently back into health that can be cannibalized yet again. That same class can also slow mobs, take quite a few hits … etc. It is the shaman paradigm that makes Torpor so game breakingly useful. We’ll … that and the only other non-cleric priest is stuck spending 400 mana for a 900hp heal vs low mana for a 1200-1500hp heal over time depending on luck and server ticks.

Beyond that torpor is actually annoying due to snare and slow effects.

That’s the funny thing about this thread. 100% of people here agree that shamans are insanely good. Beyond any doubt.

They just aren’t a contender for “best 4 man caster/priest only group”. They are nowhere near the worst.

If you said “best 4 man caster/priest only group where you can’t bring a cleric”? Sure, if the shaman is 60 and has torpor otherwise Druids become more viable.

If you said “best 4 man caster/priest only group where you can’t bring a enchanter”? Absolutely, without a doubt.

But with cleric healing (it is undeniably superior) and enchanter utility (again undeniably superior and overlaps with all critical utility functions) … shaman just doesn’t have a leg to stand on other than 55 combined shaman/pet dps.

I am glad you settled on a reasonable 55dps number DSM. That is a number I can actually get behind and believe when it’s the only thing you’re focusing on doing.

It is also incidentally worse than an unfocused level 60 water pet by itself … and even further behind a focused 60 water pet or epic pet.

[Crede]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Have a link?

I love me some garbage to read when bored at work.

You can start with his shaman guide in his signature, in which he claims to have solved the shaman racial debate(ogre bias) using more napkin math in which ogre ties with iksar but ogre wins due to jbb.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Torpor is only good because the class that can use it can cannibalize their hp into mana and turn that mana efficiently back into health that can be cannibalized yet again. That same class can also slow mobs, take quite a few hits … etc. It is the shaman paradigm that makes Torpor so game breakingly useful. We’ll … that and the only other non-cleric priest is stuck spending 400 mana for a 900hp heal vs low mana for a 1200-1500hp heal over time depending on luck and server ticks.

Beyond that torpor is actually annoying due to snare and slow effects.

That’s the funny thing about this thread. 100% of people here agree that shamans are insanely good. Beyond any doubt.

They just aren’t a contender for “best 4 man caster/priest only group”. They are nowhere near the worst.

If you said “best 4 man caster/priest only group where you can’t bring a cleric”? Sure, if the shaman is 60 and has torpor otherwise Druids become more viable.

If you said “best 4 man caster/priest only group where you can’t bring a enchanter”? Absolutely, without a doubt.

But with cleric healing (it is undeniably superior) and enchanter utility (again undeniably superior and overlaps with all critical utility functions) … shaman just doesn’t have a leg to stand on other than 55 combined shaman/pet dps.

I am glad you settled on a reasonable 55dps number DSM. That is a number I can actually get behind and believe when it’s the only thing you’re focusing on doing.

It is also incidentally worse than an unfocused level 60 water pet by itself … and even further behind a focused 60 water pet or epic pet.

The 55 DPS number is assuming you are only chain pulling, and the group isn't allowing the Shaman to root/rot. Thank you for admitting my data is valid, though. This means you agree you can get DPS numbers outside of grouping.

A Shaman can do more DPS on any targets that take a minute or longer to kill, due to having DoTs.

A Shaman can do 150 DPS or more root rotting, and JimJam supported me when he said he saw a Shaman root/rotting Velk spiders in a group.

The issue is people keep trying to force the conversation down the narrow path that a level 60 group is simply chain pulling trash in Seb, and the Shaman can't root/rot. Of course the Shaman is going to have their DPS minimized in this very specific scenario.

The reality is DPS breakpoints exist, and the Mage is simply not giving you any more kills per hour with the extra DPS they provide in an Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage combination. A Shaman will open up more camp options than a Mage, while also providing more safety and adequate DPS.

[Troxx]

Back to root rotting in parallel with your group lol

55dps isn’t adequate at 60. It’s pretty bad. My 60 paladin hovers around 75dps with BASIC buffs in seb. More on undead. I lub me some great spear of dawn procs.

repeat after me … shamans are not a group dps class and never will be

Solo? Yep.

Duo? Sure why not. Dots are gonna do their thing.

Trio? Depends on the trio.

Fast paced and/or high dps group? Oh hell no.

[cyxthryth]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

reality

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

OP never said you couldn't have a pocket cleric. I am not sure why people keep thinking this is not a possible route to take. Between four people it would be trivial to level a cleric to 39. It is pretty common for people to make pocket clerics on P99.

DSM attempted to move the goalposts by bringing a 5th "pocket" character into his "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) pertaining to the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" discussion.

Of course - speaking strictly mathematically - 4=/=5, so it is unclear why DSM has attempted to bring this 5th character into the equation or why his posts would seem to indicate that believes doing so is not an example of him moving goalposts - when it objectively is - hehe.

[Kich867]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No, because you only need to level a cleric to 39 for CH, and 49 for a 90% res.

And you only need to level a druid to like, 44 to get most teleports, necros get twitch at 44. If leveling a cleric to 49 is considered low enough effort surely we can also include these other classes who are way, way better at leveling than clerics are? We can also bring a pocket bard along to join the group between pulls for mana and regen song.

Pocket characters should be off the table for the discussion.

[Headbusta]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You can start with his shaman guide in his signature, in which he claims to have solved the shaman racial debate(ogre bias) using more napkin math in which ogre ties with iksar but ogre wins due to jbb.

I love that all this effort, writing up these different scenarios and using a tally system is equated to napkin math. That shit makes me smh.

Originally Posted by Kich867 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

And you only need to level a druid to like, 44 to get most teleports, necros get twitch at 44. If leveling a cleric to 49 is considered low enough effort surely we can also include these other classes who are way, way better at leveling than clerics are? We can also bring a pocket bard along to join the group between pulls for mana and regen song.

Pocket characters should be off the table for the discussion.

The bard comment made me laugh.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Kich867 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

And you only need to level a druid to like, 44 to get most teleports, necros get twitch at 44. If leveling a cleric to 49 is considered low enough effort surely we can also include these other classes who are way, way better at leveling than clerics are? We can also bring a pocket bard along to join the group between pulls for mana and regen song.

Pocket characters should be off the table for the discussion.

As I said, pocket druids are harder to operate because you cannot teleport the player who is operating the druid, so you would need two pocket druids. It takes twice as long to level two characters to their 40s.

The problem with a pocket bard is the bard needs to constantly be logged in to give your group the meditation song, so the player who logged out would still need to meditate after they log out of the bard.

A pocket Necro for twitch wouldn't be worth it since twitch costs so much mana. You are getting very little mana from the Necro before having to meditate. A level 49 Cleric could do quite a few CH's before you would need to swap to meditate, and that can be during waiting for respawns.

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Back to root rotting in parallel with your group lol

55dps isn’t adequate at 60. It’s pretty bad. My 60 paladin hovers around 75dps with BASIC buffs in seb. More on undead. I lub me some great spear of dawn procs.

repeat after me … shamans are not a group dps class and never will be

Solo? Yep.

Duo? Sure why not. Dots are gonna do their thing.

Trio? Depends on the trio.

Fast paced and/or high dps group? Oh hell no.

Yes, root/rotting is valid, even if you don't like it lol. DoTing mobs that take longer to kill is also valid. Again, you keep refusing to allow the Shaman to DPS, and then complain they have low DPS. That is like forcing the Mage to not use their pet, and then saying a Mage's DPS is low.

[cyxthryth]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As I said

For anyone who needs a reminder of what DSM has said:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

OP never said you couldn't have a pocket cleric. I am not sure why people keep thinking this is not a possible route to take. Between four people it would be trivial to level a cleric to 39. It is pretty common for people to make pocket clerics on P99.

DSM attempted to move the goalposts by bringing a 5th "pocket" character into his "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) pertaining to the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" discussion.

Of course - speaking strictly mathematically - 4=/=5, so it is unclear why DSM has attempted to bring this 5th character into the equation or why his posts would seem to indicate that believes doing so is not an example of him moving goalposts - when it objectively is - hehe.