Upcoming change to class epics

[drktmplr12]

Originally Posted by AzzarTheGod [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

hyperbole

not sure what you hope to accomplish with your heated ranting. you remind me of a certain county clerk. it would be smart if you just stopped posting in this thread.

here is why they did it:

Originally Posted by nilbog [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[1]There is inconsistent research regarding which epics required level requirements to obtain. [2]Several couldn't be completed until 46 or higher due to level checks on quests or certain steps involving planar zones. [3] It has been noted by the original developers that epic items were intended only for those of higher levels. [4]Additionally, we feel that acquiring an epic weapon should only be possible when a player has become powerful enough to cross interplanar portals. [Conclusion] Therefore, we are adding a level requirement of 46 to equip all epic items.

note how your opinion is not one of the items they considered.

[salimoneus]

This is a nice change and I agree more classic than how it is today. Thanks devs!

[maestrom]

TL;DR: I believe this change is inconsistent with previous staff action. I believe that to the extent that they care about being consistent and having a clear goal, they should reconsider. All that said, I fucking love this game and I won't be affected at all one bit if level 1s can't get epics. I wanna quest the epics on my chars themselves so this change would make that easier for me, maybe.

@drktmplr12

I guess the problem that some of us have with this change is, its not classic.

The problem is "classic" is weird definition. Is classic how the game was? Or is classic the rules and systems and content in place, regardless of how they were used?

Multi-questing, item recharging, clicky hammer aggro, and similar mechanics commonly used at the upper end of the game right now were absolutely possible in classic. However, most people didn't do them because they either didn't know about them, or because they never got to the level where they were useful.

Were they classic? They were possible, but super rare then. In this way, they're both classic and not classic (similar to ivandyr's hoop). They were classic because the mechanics and systems of the classic game let you do them. But they are not classic because that's not how people played back then.

So does classic mean what was possible back in 2001? Or what was done in practice back in 2001?

If you look at the history of the server, it seems like what was possible back in 2001 is "classic" with very few notable exceptions made for game breaking issues (ivandyr's hoop).

The lawyer in me pulls the rule out that Classic means classic from the game's perspective rather than the players perspective unless its game breaking given today's players, in which case a reasonable change will be made.

In this case, we don't have very strong evidence one way or another about how epics worked. Lots of credible people (Uthgaard most recently) claim that epics were equipable before level 46. Certainly they were equippable at level 45 if you got them and then deleveled, but effects might not be useable until a later date.

There are also people out there (myself included) that remembered that some NPCs would not respond to hails until you were of high enough level. This would seem to imply that there is a level 46 limit on acquiring an epic. However, there are those out there that claim that this barrier, like so many other mechanics in EQ, was not an effective barrier.

Quests were intended to be completed by one character. That's why epic mobs don't tell you to go buy an MQ. Items were never intended to be rechargeable. That's why they had a certain number of charges on them. FD banking? Epics were intended to be completeable only by a long involved individual effort with a guild behind him or her. But the level 46 talking barrier seems to have been defeated easily by MQing.

You don't remember it that way because its not how you did it. The vast majority of epics completed back then were completed without MQing large portions of it. But that doesn't mean it wasn't possible back then. And since "classic" has in the past meant the systems and mechanics of the game, rather than the players' experiences of classic, it was "classic".

Some additional, although not sufficient on its own, is the complete lack of controversy or discussion when the alleged epic requirements were removed. They had to have been removed at some point, if they were ever there, because they don't currently exist. So when were they removed? No one seems to be able to point to anything, which is surprising because if they had been removed then presumably there would be tons of discussion somewhere about it. Either on the safehouse, eqdiva, official forums, allah, somewhere. Certainly someone would have mentioned it SOMEWHERE?

So. If its not a classic system or mechanic, that is, if it was indeed POSSIBLE to get an epic at level 1 even if it didn't ever happen, then by the admin's previous approach to the server, it would be "classic" and it should stay unless it is game breaking. Twinking with insanely powerful items has always happened on every EQ server. Epics are super powerful and could potentially throw off balance at earlier levels. But so does the Frostbringer. So does Fungi. There is a long long long list of items that trivialize the 1-45 game even if you take epics out. In some cases, without the effect of the epic, epic won't even be the most desirable item to use pre-effect.

So does an epic level 1 break the game? I don't think so for a couple of reasons. Level 1 epics aren't in Seb doing OP DPS. In order to break "the game", the mechanic would have to break the game where the game matters. In the face of the 1-46 in 1 day PLs, epics simply cannot break the early game. No person with their epic can blow through the 1-46 game with as much ease as non-epic PL recipient. An epic level 1 will still have to kill the same number of orcs and gnolls as someone who doesn't have an epic, and it will probably take a similar amount of time. PL recipients skip content wholesale.

So what game is broken that isn't already broken through other flavors of heavy twinking and PLing? No epic allows a level 1 character to be useful on a dragon raid. (I keep coming back to dragon raids because that was the "breaking" that got ivandyr's hoop nerfed). I don't think level 1 epics break the game. Not in Kunark, certainly not in Velious.

So. Level 1 epics were allowable by the systems and mechanics of classic and are therefore "classic" in my interpretation of the staff's previous attitudes toward classic and therefore should not be changed unless gamebreaking. Level 1 epics do not break the game, again in my opinion, more than other options for twinking, which are not considered game breaking, and therefore I think a restriction on Level 1 epics would be inconsistent with past staff action on "classic".

All of this assumes that the staff care about being consistent in their application of classic, which I think they do.

Finally. Lol at people who say that epic level 1s offend their ideas of classic, but they're totally cool with chardok AoE groups (or AoE groups in general) for PLing nubs.

[kaev]

In the context of p99, "classic" is whatever the staff says it is. All this argumentation is nothing but a ginormous flaming load of manure. All of these self-serving "but that's not classic" crap has gotten old and stale. It's always about how you want to abuse the game with your 100% non-classic post hoc knowledge, not so much knowledge of long-lost classic EQ but knowledge of p99. You whiners have been abusing the hell out of, p99's mechanics, classic or otherwise, most of you without contributing even one legit bug report ever. P99 can never be precisely classic because so many details were never posted and archived and so much of what was posted at the time was imprecise, inaccurate, and/or ignorant speculation. Picking and choosing your personal version of :classic: for purely self-serving reasons is damned near as scummy as RMTing, half the posters in this thread are just slimy whiny hypocrites.

tl;dr
stop whining, get over it, play the game and have fun

[Tiewon Shu]

Originally Posted by kaev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In the context of p99, "classic" is whatever the staff says it is. All this argumentation is nothing but a ginormous flaming load of manure. All of these self-serving "but that's not classic" crap has gotten old and stale. It's always about how you want to abuse the game with your 100% non-classic post hoc knowledge, not so much knowledge of long-lost classic EQ but knowledge of p99. You whiners have been abusing the hell out of, p99's mechanics, classic or otherwise, most of you without contributing even one legit bug report ever. P99 can never be precisely classic because so many details were never posted and archived and so much of what was posted at the time was imprecise, inaccurate, and/or ignorant speculation. Picking and choosing your personal version of :classic: for purely self-serving reasons is damned near as scummy as RMTing, half the posters in this thread are just slimy whiny hypocrites.

tl;dr
stop whining, get over it, play the game and have fun

Well said, and ... unblock Luclin models! [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[drktmplr12]

maestrom,

you took the time to write it, so i took the time to read it. you bring up good points, but i have no interest in arguing the details of possible-in-classic versus happened-in-classic or anything else for that matter. im only pointing out the absurdity of the outrage.

[AzzarTheGod]

Originally Posted by drktmplr12 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

here is why they did it:



note how your opinion is not one of the items they considered.

LOL Still waiting for that same post to be made about end-game Blue raiding and item recharges across 3 separate items.

Let me know when the big raid bigots decide to nerf something that affects their own end-game. I'll be waiting. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[maestrom]

Originally Posted by drktmplr12 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

maestrom,

you took the time to write it, so i took the time to read it. you bring up good points, but i have no interest in arguing the details of possible-in-classic versus happened-in-classic or anything else for that matter. im only pointing out the absurdity of the outrage.

I wasn't disputing that hehe. I was just responding to your statement that they do whatever they want (i agree) with what I think their philosophy is toward the server, and that this change is inconsistent with what I thought was their philosphy.

It's totally a close call because it falls into that possible in classic but didn't happen category and could reasonably go either way.

Its very likely that this will be a change that is good for the server, which I'm super pumped about, but which also concerns me. Prices on epic MQs will fall because there will be fewer buyers combined with the downward pressure from Velious. Hopefully, people (RMTs included) will stop keeping epic spawns on lockdown hoping to sell because there will be fewer buyers.

I have, in other places, argued for other relatively uninvasive non-classic changes that rather unambiguously make the game better. (Luclin models for those that want them, reversion of the auto-stand on cast, buff timers to name a few).

I don't think that Nilbog and crew *owe* me anything. I'm not entitled to open his brain and watch how he evaluates the server. But I think it would be fun if someone on the staff came in and said how this particular change fits into their model of "classic". I guess the closest thing we have to that is the "intent of the developers", but if we look at that hybrid exp penalties should have been taken out on day 1 because there is a developer letter that shows that hybrid exp was a bad idea and should never have been put in in the first place.

I'm going to keep enjoying the server because it's amazing and incredible and the staff does awesome work. This whole issue is pure curiosity for me. I just think that if you know someone's goals and their capabilities/constraints, you can generally predict how they are going to handle something. This development is a pretty decent departure from what I expected from the staff and I think it would be fun to learn if its a one-off or if we can incorporate it into our models and adjust expectations for the future of the server accordingly.

Of course you don't have those answers though :P Just explaining myself.

[Eliseus]

Originally Posted by drktmplr12 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

not sure what you hope to accomplish with your heated ranting. you remind me of a certain county clerk. it would be smart if you just stopped posting in this thread.

here is why they did it:



note how your opinion is not one of the items they considered.

do you mean the heated ranting of certain people that ended up with a certain county clerk in jail?

[ergo]

Its all good, you still put weapons that proc 80-140 dd at level one, but a cleric epic you still cant use till lv 50, nah we cant give you those stats...

I mean a fungi on a lv 1 isnt broken as shit, but I dont see you making those have level requirements to equip.

Either be equal in your NON-CLASSIC moves or dont do them at all after YEARS of allowing. I mean hell at least letting a cleric equip the damn thing hurts nothing.

Fix your rogue problem on red and leave blue alone. Thanks.