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  #21  
Old 01-02-2014, 04:38 PM
Tanthallas Tanthallas is offline
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Originally Posted by falkun [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
I could maybe get behind something close to this *IF* tier1 guilds could not control who is in tier2 at all times. Tier1 guilds can keep tier2FFA on lockdown, then no guild remains in tier2 and tier2Rotation mobs just wait 6 hours (because no rotation there to slay them) and go into FFA. How do you propose handling this scenario?
This is always what it will come down to. There is a large grey area between cockblocking and competing, but you cannot simply call any instance where competition exists bad because their is the potential for some entity to take that competition to a higher level. Being able to work some kind of agreement is the point here, not to simply shout no I dont like it because it has the potential for x,y,z, to happen.

So, to avoid the x,y,z, we could - for example - expand the list of relevant FFA targets that guilds need to kill to be put on tier 2; or we could put the world dragons on Tier One rotation but make Tier One guilds not eligible for killing them on the FFA weeks; or some combination of both. There are MANY ways to avoid the potential of cockblocking, not to mention that the Guild Council itself should be used as a tool to do so.
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more ducktape than exploit
  #22  
Old 01-02-2014, 04:39 PM
-Catherin- -Catherin- is offline
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tier two guilds don't really want it to be made easier to be bumped into tier 1, because they don't want to be in tier 1. They don't like the tier 1 playstyle nor can they commit to it. forcing a tier 2 guild that did not want to enter tier 1 would effectively destroy that guild.

These two tiers are different playstayles, not different skills.
  #23  
Old 01-02-2014, 04:46 PM
Tanthallas Tanthallas is offline
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Originally Posted by Exmo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
They don't want to bump up to Tier One though, they want a shot at CT/Inny/Vs/Trak without competing with TMO/FE/BDA.
The goal is to make the content AVAILABLE contingent on guilds WILLING to agree on a SYSTEM of their availability. Devising a new system of content availability does not mean there are zero boundaries and we should all be hugging and dancing naked in the rain. We are all still competitors, we are all still different guilds; what we are trying to do here is make the competitive scene itself less cutt-throat, NOT eliminate the competitive scene itself.

This proposal makes everything available, and is flexible enough to allow for modifications that can avoid the more devious forms of competition which were the main reason that most guilds were cockblocked out of progression in the past. The Tier system merely recognizes the fact that some guilds are more try hard than others - but it also leaves the door open for guilds who wish to put in a push here or there, or maintain their Tiered status that they achieve. There is no guarantee that one guild or another will make their Tier, nor is there a guarantee that one guild or another will maintain their Tier.
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more ducktape than exploit
  #24  
Old 01-02-2014, 04:47 PM
Tanthallas Tanthallas is offline
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Originally Posted by -Catherin- [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
tier two guilds don't really want it to be made easier to be bumped into tier 1, because they don't want to be in tier 1. They don't like the tier 1 playstyle nor can they commit to it. forcing a tier 2 guild that did not want to enter tier 1 would effectively destroy that guild.

These two tiers are different playstayles, not different skills.
Yes - and noone is forced to do anything. You can CHOOSE if you want to be in Tier One or not, conditional, of course, on meeting the requirements. If you want to get into Tier One for a 2 month period merely for the rotation of the mobs that are not in Tier Two, go ahead and do it and then go back to Tier Two when you are done.

It is completely another thing for people to say that they are being systematically denied entry into a Tier, however, for this is clearly not the case.
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more ducktape than exploit
Last edited by Tanthallas; 01-02-2014 at 04:49 PM..
  #25  
Old 01-02-2014, 04:47 PM
falkun falkun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanthallas [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
There are MANY ways to avoid the potential of cockblocking, not to mention that the Guild Council itself should be used as a tool to do so.
Except the guild councils are separate in your proposal, Tier1 guilds have their council, and tier2 guilds have a different one. What incentive does the tier1 guild council have to punish guilds cockblocking entry into tier2? When tier2rotation mobs become FFA, tier1 guilds get more mobs. If a guild becomes tier2, then it can work towards tier1. The incentive is there (as it was before the TMO suspension) to diminish participation in the raid scene, not expand it.
  #26  
Old 01-02-2014, 04:48 PM
Exmo Exmo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanthallas [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
The goal is to make the content AVAILABLE contingent on guilds WILLING to agree on a SYSTEM of their availability. Devising a new system of content availability does not mean there are zero boundaries and we should all be hugging and dancing naked in the rain. We are all still competitors, we are all still different guilds; what we are trying to do here is make the competitive scene itself less cutt-throat, NOT eliminate the competitive scene itself.

This proposal makes everything available, and is flexible enough to allow for modifications that can avoid the more devious forms of competition which were the main reason that most guilds were cockblocked out of progression in the past. The Tier system merely recognizes the fact that some guilds are more try hard than others - but it also leaves the door open for guilds who wish to put in a push here or there, or maintain their Tiered status that they achieve. There is no guarantee that one guild or another will make their Tier, nor is there a guarantee that one guild or another will maintain their Tier.
Everything is available to them now. How many trak's has Azure Guard/Taken/etc. etc. Gotten?

Theory and practice are different, and you're assuming that "completing" against TMO is making a kill available, and that's simply wrong.
  #27  
Old 01-02-2014, 04:52 PM
Alarti0001 Alarti0001 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exmo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Everything is available to them now. How many trak's has Azure Guard/Taken/etc. etc. Gotten?

Theory and practice are different, and you're assuming that "completing" against TMO is making a kill available, and that's simply wrong.
Except they weren't competing.

Inny was competing in their own way on Inny recently. Look at their inny's in a row.
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It's pretty clear he's become one of the people he described as No-life Nerds and Server Bullies.
  #28  
Old 01-02-2014, 04:55 PM
radditsu radditsu is offline
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Originally Posted by Alarti0001 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Except they weren't competing.

Inny was competing in their own way on Inny recently. Look at their inny's in a row.
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  #29  
Old 01-02-2014, 05:02 PM
Tanthallas Tanthallas is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exmo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Everything is available to them now. How many trak's has Azure Guard/Taken/etc. etc. Gotten?

Theory and practice are different, and you're assuming that "completing" against TMO is making a kill available, and that's simply wrong.
The 2-hour system was put in as a test. All it really did was allow mobs to be spread over more guilds than they would have otherwise over this two week period.

We are now talking about an actual rotation system, though not a complete rotation system it is still a rotation system in the sense that particular guilds are guaranteed a shot at particular mobs when it is their turn. This goes above and beyond the 2-hour no kill agreement that we had put in place before.

Not realizing that theory and practice are different, such that ideal circumstances which exist in theory are never actually recreated in practicallity, is indeed a bad thing. But bitching to bitch is far far worse.
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  #30  
Old 01-02-2014, 05:03 PM
falkun falkun is offline
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Considering your (doraf) posts here and in Raid Discussion, here is my attempt to alter your rules to preclude tier1 from blocking entry into T2:
Quote:
Maestro will be added to T1 rotation schedule, but T1FFA will not engage Maestro.
At this point, T2 will instantly put FFA-Maestro on rotation so that all guilds kill him once in a two-month period and they can remain on the rotation. Except now the mob is rotated, what you didn't want...My point here is that tier2 does not want the competition, tier2 wants the rotation. So develop a system where tier2 can rotate and tier1 can FFA, like the Divinity plan, or Rogean's proposal.
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