What is BDA doing to work towards a raid agreement?

[arsenalpow]

Originally Posted by Tasslehofp99 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

One of the most objective FE members at that. He is making a fair observation, not that it matters to you. I understand your desire for change and your hard headed approach to getting things done, though. However you have to realize any good compromise is the one in which all sides walk away feeling unsatisfied after giving up something. You can't get everything you want all the time, a lesson best learned at a young age.


Good luck either way, the attitude youre bringing to the table isn't going to change anything other than people's perception of you as an individual.

1) the hardcore guilds are giving up nothing in these negotiations, in fact they are currently being rewarded for their behavior in the endgame. Things were shut down because of all the comPETITION and now the shitshow they've propagated is being used to say "we compete super hard, and you don't compete, so you don't deserve mobs"

2) something else learned at a young age, sharing, which I guess hasn't been learned from your side either

3) I don't give two fucks about what any individual thinks about me. I'm in these negotiations to represent the best interests of BDA and now I'm taking up the mantle of the casual as well. All of these agreements are stilted to benefit the hardcore guilds, and don't even acknowledge any guild that could be up and coming. The casuals are squarely behind rogean's plan which would give 7 guilds a 50% split of the mobs outside of VP. That's very little pie to divvy up, and even less when more guilds eventually form and work their way up to killing dragons, and you know what, we the casuals don't care. We would rather keep dividing the 50% of the pie ever smaller with more people to maintain a casual environment just to stay away from the hardcore shitshow, but apparently the hardcores need even more than 50% to satiate that pixel thirst

[Handull]

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't like the tier1/tier2/FFA rotation, a FFA target is tantamount to giving the mob directly to TMO/FE. We've all agreed that VP is the true endgame so we've all agreed to keep VP out of almost all discussions. Walling off mobs like VS and Inny from the casual guilds isn't fair to the casual guilds, they can be easily killed with two groups, they're special because they drop nice loot, not because they are hard to kill which seems to be a common argument as well (see doraf's posts in the raid forum)

unfortunately how hard a mob isn't doesn't matter to how much people will want to kill it. Gore is a fairly hard mob, but I think most people could care less to kill it, since most of Gore's loot drops off of other mobs, and Gore isn't an epic roadblock for any class. While VS might be easy, VS almost always drops great loot (trade-able, and loot for every class). Silverwing, on the other hand, will most likely drop nothing of any value. However he can drop a few very unique and desirable items. The only reason the server is happy to leave SW to 100% ffa is that he is in a limited access zone.

this can be expanded to so many other mobs. Inny is desirable because many people have a Mage and mage epic loot is rare, as is the necro focus item. While Fay is a druid epic roadblock, since the pod became 100% drop (which was my doing, high end raiders actually try to help the server, you're welcome), its fairly common, so there isn't any huge desire for anyone to kill fay over and over.

[goshozal]

A charlatan always insists that his personal agenda coincides with the interests of the downtrodden.

[arsenalpow]

Originally Posted by Hitpoint [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I do think that VS and Inny are the two mobs that tier 1 can certainly lose to tier 2 in FFA weeks. Taken has inny on lock already. VS is a mob that requires "work," but it can be done by just about anyone. Full Circle got FTE and were awarded the kill on their first attempt. I know you guys don't want to do that kind of thing, but it's at least an option if other tier 2 guilds choose to.

Taken doesn't want to sock Inny, they only did so because of the environment that was created by TMO/FE. They got tired of being trained each time so their hand was forced. I was there for the Full Circle FTE, in fact I was the one that ordered BDA to hate to provide support for the cause after everyone let Full Circle sock unbothered until TMO showed up and wanted to sit on the spawn point too, also actions dictated by the environment TMO created and they basically won the coin flip. I'm not willing to tolerate that type of raiding environment any longer. Full Circle's Inny sock is the current day VS sock where FE/TMO sit on VS for 100+ hours for a coin flip, how is that possibly sane and/or "competing" and that's the main problem with the hardcore mindset.

[arsenalpow]

Originally Posted by Handull [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

unfortunately how hard a mob isn't doesn't matter to how much people will want to kill it. Gore is a fairly hard mob, but I think most people could care less to kill it, since most of Gore's loot drops off of other mobs, and Gore isn't an epic roadblock for any class. While VS might be easy, VS almost always drops great loot (trade-able, and loot for every class). Silverwing, on the other hand, will most likely drop nothing of any value. However he can drop a few very unique and desirable items. The only reason the server is happy to leave SW to 100% ffa is that he is in a limited access zone.

this can be expanded to so many other mobs. Inny is desirable because many people have a Mage and mage epic loot is rare, as is the necro focus item. While Fay is a druid epic roadblock, since the pod became 100% drop (which was my doing, high end raiders actually try to help the server, you're welcome), its fairly common, so there isn't any huge desire for anyone to kill fay over and over.

I'm not sure what point you're making here except that the hardcore contingent also wants loot from mobs like VS and Inny, same as the casual crowd.

[Autotune]

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't like the tier1/tier2/FFA rotation, a FFA target is tantamount to giving the mob directly to TMO/FE. We've all agreed that VP is the true endgame so we've all agreed to keep VP out of almost all discussions. Walling off mobs like VS and Inny from the casual guilds isn't fair to the casual guilds, they can be easily killed with two groups, they're special because they drop nice loot, not because they are hard to kill which seems to be a common argument as well (see doraf's posts in the raid forum)

It's not giving them anything. It allows the first group and the 2nd group to compete against each other if they wish it. It allows guild like yours that claim they don't want to compete with the other side to stay out. It rewards people that put forth effort (from both sides).

I like you, so don't take what I say the wrong way, but I think you're only looking at it from your guild's point on this one.

Originally Posted by Hitpoint [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I do think that VS and Inny are the two mobs that tier 1 can certainly lose to tier 2 in FFA weeks. Taken has inny on lock already. VS is a mob that requires "work," but it can be done by just about anyone. Full Circle got FTE and were awarded the kill on their first attempt. I know you guys don't want to do that kind of thing, but it's at least an option if other tier 2 guilds choose to.

This, plus Trak spawns relatively fast and will spawn faster when variance is reduced.

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

1) the hardcore guilds are giving up nothing in these negotiations, in fact they are currently being rewarded for their behavior in the endgame. Things were shut down because of all the comPETITION and now the shitshow they've propagated is being used to say "we compete super hard, and you don't compete, so you don't deserve mobs"

2) something else learned at a young age, sharing, which I guess hasn't been learned from your side either

3) I don't give two fucks about what any individual thinks about me. I'm in these negotiations to represent the best interests of BDA and now I'm taking up the mantle of the casual as well. All of these agreements are stilted to benefit the hardcore guilds, and don't even acknowledge any guild that could be up and coming. The casuals are squarely behind rogean's plan which would give 7 guilds a 50% split of the mobs outside of VP. That's very little pie to divvy up, and even less when more guilds eventually form and work their way up to killing dragons, and you know what, we the casuals don't care. We would rather keep dividing the 50% of the pie ever smaller with more people to maintain a casual environment just to stay away from the hardcore shitshow, but apparently the hardcores need even more than 50% to satiate that pixel thirst

1)The hardcore guilds, in my proposal, "give up" Half of the T2 targets and have a chance to only gain 1/3 of T1 targets. (they can gain as much as they lose)

2) That's the whole point of the proposal I linked. Everything is shared, but no one is given anything by the proposal.

3) No proposal is going to put a casual guild "getting" equal mobs (without effort) with the mobs that the non-casual guilds "get."

Overall, the proposal I gave you gives your guilds the most room to grow and the most raiding over the period of a month and it doesn't punish your guild for wanting to step into VP if you ever wanted to (or any other guild that wishes to step in).

I agree, TMO/FE/IB have better chances to kill FFA targets in my proposal, but that's because they are better and not because they are "given" the targets.

No socking, No alt armies (when nilbog gets to it), and severe punishments for training... what do you have to worry about for BDA now (serious question so people can try to address it)?

[Handull]

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

1) the hardcore guilds are giving up nothing in these negotiations, in fact they are currently being rewarded for their behavior in the endgame. Things were shut down because of all the comPETITION and now the shitshow they've propagated is being used to say "we compete super hard, and you don't compete, so you don't deserve mobs"

before 'negotiations' the hardcore guilds got almost all of the mobs and the casuals got almost nothing. during the global suspension, everyone gets nothing, so how are the hardcores being rewarded?

the hardcores are happy to give up at least some mobs to the rest of the server, so we ARE giving up something. the details of higher end mobs are contested, but can be negotiated.

even before the gm forced negotiations, fe was drafting a server raid plan.

on the last day before the global suspension, ~6 guilds were mobilizing for a CT pop. FE could have 'zerged' him down within a few minutes of him spawning, but leadership adamantly insisted on waiting 20 minutes to let other guilds engage. Taken got a chance to go in and rush CT, BDA members were zoning in, and about 90 other players were sitting in The Feerrott. After CT died another guild (Azure Guard?) zoned in, and we offered to rez their dead when they asked if they could drag corpses to us. FE wants a fun, competitive raid scene, and we are actively working for that with our words and actions.

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

2) sharing, which I guess hasn't been learned from your side either

3) I'm in these negotiations to represent the best interests of BDA

riiiight......

[Handull]

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Taken doesn't want to sock Inny, they only did so because of the environment that was created by DA/TR/IB/TMO & the GMs

fixed

[Tasslehofp99]

Many of the proposals being agreed upon are giving free mobs to guilds who have never even attempted to kill them/track them. Why is this not enough?

Also, your claims of taking up the mantle lf the casuals is laughable. BDA is the biggest guild on project1999 and would swallow any truly casual guild in head to head competition. This is why you are against any agreement that calls for any head to head competition. Your guild isn't tier 2(too big and capable), and you damn sure aren't tier 1 (unwilling to track/mobilize/compete)

That leaves you with 2 options, agree to compete with guilds on your level (fe/ib/tmo, also why you oppose them at every turn) ..or stomp feet till server is devoid of competition.

[arsenalpow]

Originally Posted by Autotune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's not giving them anything. It allows the first group and the 2nd group to compete against each other if they wish it. It allows guild like yours that claim they don't want to compete with the other side to stay out. It rewards people that put forth effort (from both sides).

Again, you call it effort, i call it the toxic raid scene that i don't think deserves to be rewarded

Originally Posted by Autotune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No socking, No alt armies (when nilbog gets to it), and severe punishments for training... what do you have to worry about for BDA now (serious question so people can try to address it)?

I won't make an agreement on maybes (reduced variance, anti shithead coding)