A reply to a thread in the Raid Discussion section.

[Uteunayr]

Applying a "rotation" mindset to "World of Warcraft" is stupid, and Hyjal should feel ashamed for making such a terrible reference. It was done for absolutely nothing other than to get a knee-jerk reaction out of readers. World of Warcraft guilds do not need to rotate or compete for limited resources, instead they compete over who can kill the most number within their instanced bubble.

Now, on to the more fundamental issue.

The big problem I am seeing now is that the FFA guilds are saying that swapping mobs back and forth between them and more casual guilds (who may still decide upon competition, but with limitations such as re-engage timers on successive spawns, etc., it is up to them), that is a rotation.

This is the terrible perspective. This is why there is an incompatibility between the two ways of thinking, and if there is ever going to be an even balance, compromise needs to be made.

No one is telling the FFA guilds, the Class C guilds, to share their mobs amongst themselves. No one is saying they need to rotate among themselves. The 1/1/1 plan says that you look at website or program Rogean is working on to say which class got the last kill, and you compete over the ones that are coming your direction. If this isn't enough competition, then it isn't competition you're seeking.

Further, with the repops Rogean has proposed, there would be a plentiful number of mobs across the server as even Nilbog went along with making simulated repops not effect the normal spawn time, meaning you get the same number of spawns, split 33%/33%/33%, with the FFA ones falling more easily into the competitive tier, so 66%/33%. Then, you add in the fact that there are 2-4 respawns a month that do not effect timers, and you inflate the values further. Rogean I believe said that (before Nilbog agreed to making the repops not effect respawn timers) that with the respawn timers resetting, Class C (hardcore) guilds would see only a 7% drop in mobs to compete over.

Competition is classic. Rotations are classic. Cooperation is classic. Being a douchebag is classic. Rogean's plan permits each side to play their type of classic with their split of the toys, to compete over, or to rotate, or to compete in a more friendly way.

The only change I'd make to Rogean's plan is to say that if a guild wants to be Class C, they can just become Class C. Let Dolj fight with the other Class C guilds and get the type of competition they want.

[Elements]

Originally Posted by Uteunayr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Applying a "rotation" mindset to "World of Warcraft" is stupid, and Hyjal should feel ashamed for making such a terrible reference. It was done for absolutely nothing other than to get a knee-jerk reaction out of readers. World of Warcraft guilds do not need to rotate or compete for limited resources, instead they compete over who can kill the most number within their instanced bubble.

Now, on to the more fundamental issue.

The big problem I am seeing now is that the FFA guilds are saying that swapping mobs back and forth between them and more casual guilds (who may still decide upon competition, but with limitations such as re-engage timers on successive spawns, etc., it is up to them), that is a rotation.

This is the terrible perspective. This is why there is an incompatibility between the two ways of thinking, and if there is ever going to be an even balance, compromise needs to be made.

No one is telling the FFA guilds, the Class C guilds, to share their mobs amongst themselves. No one is saying they need to rotate among themselves. The 1/1/1 plan says that you look at website or program Rogean is working on to say which class got the last kill, and you compete over the ones that are coming your direction. If this isn't enough competition, then it isn't competition you're seeking.

Further, with the repops Rogean has proposed, there would be a plentiful number of mobs across the server as even Nilbog went along with making simulated repops not effect the normal spawn time, meaning you get the same number of spawns, split 33%/33%/33%, with the FFA ones falling more easily into the competitive tier, so 66%/33%. Then, you add in the fact that there are 2-4 respawns a month that do not effect timers, and you inflate the values further. Rogean I believe said that (before Nilbog agreed to making the repops not effect respawn timers) that with the respawn timers resetting, Class C (hardcore) guilds would see only a 7% drop in mobs to compete over.

Competition is classic. Rotations are classic. Cooperation is classic. Being a douchebag is classic. Rogean's plan permits each side to play their type of classic with their split of the toys, to compete over, or to rotate, or to compete in a more friendly way.

The only change I'd make to Rogean's plan is to say that if a guild wants to be Class C, they can just become Class C. Let Dolj fight with the other Class C guilds and get the type of competition they want.

More bull shit numbers based on faulty premises. Just stop the propaganda.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

Originally Posted by The Situation [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Doljon wants competition.

Doljon wiped to an uncontested Faydedar.

Let's think about that....

If DJ is the only tier 2 guild that competes during t2 time of the month, guess where everyone's alt goes.

[Uteunayr]

Originally Posted by Elements [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

More bull shit numbers based on faulty premises. Just stop the propaganda.

If you wish to offer your own, do so. It is the job of the critic to offer alternative evidence. Put up alternative evidence or accept the conclusion drawn. Don't attack the person, attack the claim. It's a fallacy.

I will elaborate only one thing, in that the math was Splorf's, not Rogean's (and I wrote above "I believe...", in that I was not completely sure), but it was done on Rogean's plan before Nilbog's agreement to the repops.

Originally Posted by HeallunRumblebelly [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If DJ is the only tier 2 guild that competes during t2 time of the month, guess where everyone's alt goes.

Just clarifying what you responded to, it was "uncontested" in that AG did not interfere with their mob or mess with their pull. AG was there to engage and claim the mob, as it was theirs by the rotation that most of the "tier 2" guilds accepted. Upon wiping, AG engaged with the assistance of a BDA puller (teaching a puller of theirs), and then they killed the boss with less players and with no other guild's help on the fight itself.

[knix]

With the 1 1 1 rotation plan there is times where on a repop there will be an R mob that spawns. For example the R mob would be gorenaire. The R -guild who was assigned that spawn would have to go after that gorenaire first before competing for other FFA mobs. You will not be able to go after FFA mobs if your R mobs spawns. There might be 2 or 3 R mobs that spawn on a repop day.

Who is going to police this, are you going to expect Sirken and Derubael to monitor this to make sure R's are doing it right? And what happens to the R guild if they go after an FFA mob while they have a R spawned, or what happens to a C guild if they kill a mob on a repop day honestly thinking its an FFA or a C mob.

[Splorf22]

Originally Posted by HeallunRumblebelly [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If DJ is the only tier 2 guild that competes during t2 time of the month, guess where everyone's alt goes.

this better result in a ban of all toons, or there is no point at all to the concept of tiers

Originally Posted by elements

More bull shit numbers based on faulty premises. Just stop the propaganda.

Your post contains no substantiative content, which makes it the essence of propaganda, not to mention incorrect. Under Rogean's plan, 66% of mobs will be FFA, but the total number of mobs will increase by at least 50%. 2/3 of 150% is . . . wait for it . . 100%. Precisely the same number of mobs will be FFA as before, and there will be 50% more VP mobs as well. If you can't get those, that is not Rogean's fault.

The OP's point is that classic EverQuest was not, on most servers, a game dominated by FTE and racing, and that the people who are constantly posting carebear gifs and making comparisons to World of Warcraft are either trolling or dumb.

[Uteunayr]

Originally Posted by knix [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

With the 1 1 1 rotation plan there is times where on a repop there will be an R mob that spawns. For example the R mob would be gorenaire. The R -guild who was assigned that spawn would have to go after that gorenaire first before competing for other FFA mobs. You will not be able to go after FFA mobs if your R mobs spawns. There might be 2 or 3 R mobs that spawn on a repop day.

Who is going to police this, are you going to expect Sirken and Derubael to monitor this to make sure R's are doing it right? And what happens to the R guild if they go after an FFA mob while they have a R spawned, or what happens to a C guild if they kill a mob on a repop day honestly thinking its an FFA or a C mob.

I believe it was brought up in the Raid Discussion that Rogean was able to create something that would collect who killed what, and then upload that to a site (similar to whokilledit), which would let everyone know which class was the last to kill the mob. It would give a reliable way to know which mobs are locked to which tier.

Further, the 1/1/1 split doesn't necessarily mean that the Class R guilds have to rotate. Rogean's plan only says that Class R guilds cannot monopolize a single mob, by needing to wait 2 respawns until their next claim. Any agreement between the Class R guilds, and the challenges (such as getting your assigned Class R mob before a FFA spawned mob) fall entirely on Class R and the way they decide to manage their system. That isn't the responsibility of Rogean's Plan to institute such a rotation, only to make it so each side can create their own environment that is beneficial to themselves, without degrading the other.

So, as for who is going to police this, it will be rather simple to police in truth. You look at the schedule, it was a Class C mob, a Class R guild did it, swap the loot, done. There's no question as to who is in the wrong in this case, because we know the Class R guild was the aggressor. No need to delve through endless crap to discover the truth. Class R guild takes out a Class C mob, they are in trouble, end.

As for enforcing whatever Class R sets up among themselves, that's on themselves to create a system to manage it. Rogean's Plan doesn't force a rotation on either side, so if Class R creates a rotation, it's on them to live up to it, and to find a way to enforce it, because that was created by them. Without a rotation, the 2 kill lockout for Class R is more than enough to help diffuse a single guild from being insanely too powerful and monopolizing.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Originally Posted by Elements [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

More bull shit numbers based on faulty premises. Just stop the propaganda.

Let's look at the numbers then, and measure solely the number of spawns where a Class C (hardcore) guild has the opportunity to compete for. Because that's what this is all about, right?

Based on a 30-day cycle, we know that the mobs that spawn at 7 days +/- 48 hours spawn, on average, 4.2857 times during the 30-day cycle. This is mathematical fact. I confirmed it by running trials in Excel over 5000 iterations with a random time from spawn-to-kill between 0-60 minutes, just to make sure I hadn't forgotten basic math... It comes out to 4.28-4.29 every damn time. Lets go ahead and round to 4.3 for simplicity's sake.

Reducing variance as Rogean proposed does not change that number... it only reduces the tracking window needed. That is good for all of us. Again, I ran trials with 72-hour, 48-hour, 24-hour, and 12-hour variance just to make sure the math wasn't eluding me. Still, 4.3 spawns of a particular mob per 30 days.

So prior to the raid suspension, hardcore guilds had 4.3 opportunities a month to kill a given mob a the 7 day +/- 48 hour cycle. Bear with me...

Rogean stated the 1/1/1 plan would include between 2-4 simulated patch day respawns per month. So lets say an average of 3. At first this doesn't mean very much, because a full re-pop would under normal mechanics reset the spawn timers of normal spawn cycles. Until Rogean added that nilbog supported the continuation of normal spawn timers during a simulated respawn. Unless I am misunderstanding, now we can add an average of 3 extra spawns per month due to full repops to that 4.3 we're already seeing.

At this point, the hardcore guilds have no more argument that they are being negatively impacted. Here is why:

Now there are 7.3 respawns of a 7 day +/- 48 hour cycle mob in a 30 day period. Of these, they would rotate between Class C, Class R, and FFA per the 1/1/1 plan. Rogean has stated that full repops would not change what status a particular mob would fall under... it simply rotates across those categories each time it spawns, however it spawns (normal vs. forced). Over 219 spawns (thirty 30-day periods), it follows that 73 of them would be Class C, 73 would be Class R, and 73 of them would be FFA.

The opportunity for hardcore guilds to compete on these spawns is obviously the sum of Class C and FFA mobs, since they can't touch Class R. The difference is of course that they have fewer guilds to compete against in Class C than in FFA, but the point remains the same: they have the opportunity to compete for them and that's supposedly what competition is all about. That is 146 spawns over thirty 30-day periods they have the opportunity to compete for.

Divide that by 30 to get the number of spawns they have an opportunity to compete for in a 30-day period.... surprise, it's 4.86 spawns of a particular mob on the 7 day +/- 48 hour spawn cycle.

So there you have it. The hardcore's reluctance to accept the 1/1/1 plan in which they get the opportunity to compete for more mobs than they already do is all about denying pixels to others. We have mathematical proof that under Rogean's plan they would get the opportunity to compete against 4.86 spawns a month compared to the 4.3 they have had the opportunity to compete for in the past.

[Bones]

Originally Posted by Aeaolena [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Exactly. I would use the analogy that this game is like a game of vintage ring toss. The true skill of it is in the eye coordination of the toss, and getting it around the stake.

However, some players have put an overhead (ie. covering the rings in feces)... This is disturbing to anyone else who would choose to play for skill, who remembers how this vintage game is supposed to be played.. And doesn't wish to get arm-deep in defecation. So here in this scenario.. 7/9 raid forces are choosing to sit out and not play at all.

That is not loving competition.. That is simply the art of preventing competition. And I would venture to say this aspect is not classic at all for the majority of players here.

well said but wise words fall not on deaf ears

[Aeaolena]

Originally Posted by Aeaolena [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Exactly. I would use the analogy that this game is like a game of vintage ring toss. The true skill of it is in the eye coordination of the toss, and getting it around the stake.

However, some players have put an overhead (ie. covering the rings in feces)... This is disturbing to anyone else who would choose to play for skill, who remembers how this vintage game is supposed to be played.. And doesn't wish to get arm-deep in defecation. So here in this scenario.. 7/9 raid forces are choosing to sit out and not play at all.

That is not loving competition.. That is simply the art of preventing competition. And I would venture to say this aspect is not classic at all for the majority of players here.

Originally Posted by Bones [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

well said but wise words fall not on deaf ears

Then I just have to have faith that Rogean and Nilbog aren't deaf. :/

Especially since they are the ones who, as an analogy, again.. posted the "Do not shit on rings" signs.. only to have certain guilds lawyer-argue against the spirit of said rule - arguing that "Shit is defined as a solid substance, that is clearly diarrhea.."

Thus the whole reason why the Raid talks are taking place, to curb some of the nonsense.