Why I am forever centrist

[KagatobLuvsAnimu]

Originally Posted by Patriam1066 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Argo is as accurate a depiction of Iran as the Lion King is of how a pride of lions operates.

I hate to defend it because it's a shit hole, but I ever meet the makers of that movie or the last season of Homeland, I will kick them in the Nuts for their blatant propaganda.

Persians have never been, and will never be, stupid. We have many shortcomings, like how I had a full beard at age 11 and the white kids called me Moses, but we aren't caricature-like Arabs who scream Allahu Akbar and then set off a C4 vest. Islam is a very small aspect of the culture... Unfortunately the government uses Jizzlam as a CYA tactic to hide the fact that the IRGC is nothing more than a military dictatorship.

Let my people go

Originally Posted by Patriam1066 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

My favorite place in Iran (that I visited). I don't know why Affleck is so offended, but I can't stand how Maher thinks everyone in the Middle East is garbage. Like we're all misogynists and homophobes who take nothing from life but what we're told by our Imam or sheik.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-mTVcaJ6-zq...00/8tEc6Yt.jpg

Originally Posted by Patriam1066 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

watch last season of Homeland. It isn't about "vanilla," it's blatant anti-iranian propaganda.

And no, I dont, but when Israelis make a show to make my race look like savages, expect scrutiny.

Do you troll every post that has nothing to do with you? Thank you, come again

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm not a fan of Israel, but that doesn't change the fact that your race is the very group that makes them look like savages. The sooner you realize that, the sooner something might be done to change it before the rest of the first world gets sick enough of your bullshit and simply annihilates every last one of you.

[paulgiamatti]

Ugh Kagatob, you're the exact reason why people like Ben Affleck have a knee-jerk response to brand anyone who criticizes Islam a racist bigot - because there actually are racist, bigoted idiots like you.

As for Argo's accuracy, I mean, I can accept that I don't have as good of an idea of what Iran is actually like compared to someone who lived and grew up there. I don't want to come off like I'm condemning Iran or the Iranian people - just their theocratic despots and the bad ideas perpetrated by Islamism such as apostacy, martyrdom, jihad, the disempowerment of women, and so forth.

There are actually Muslims fighting for moderate reform within Islamic communities in places like Iran and Iraq, which isn't a thing you can say lightly - these people risk their lives. You don't get to be a neckbearded, fedora-donning atheist in these places, because you'll be killed for being an apostate. The most change they can hope for is change from within by moderate reformers.

[Lune]

Paul, it's more about culture than it is about race or religion, Kaga just doesn't frame it that way. And a culture is a perfectly valid thing to dislike, because it's an extremely powerful system of guidance for behavior and it's actually possible to identify.

Even 'moderate' muslims are still extremely religious, with cultural idiosyncrasies that are going to be outright offensive to your typical 'neckbearded, fedora-donning atheist' like myself. Every nation gets the government it deserves. Show me a majority-Islamic society that I can respect, and I'll change my mind.

[Patriam1066]

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Paul, it's more about culture than it is about race or religion, Kaga just doesn't frame it that way. And a culture is a perfectly valid thing to dislike, because it's an extremely powerful system of guidance for behavior and it's actually possible to identify.

Even 'moderate' muslims are still extremely religious, with cultural idiosyncrasies that are going to be outright offensive to your typical 'neckbearded, fedora-donning atheist' like myself. Every nation gets the government it deserves. Show me a majority-Islamic society that I can respect, and I'll change my mind.

So I assume then, that you agree with everything that your government does. After all, you get the government you deserve. As for Iran, I'd like you to google Mohammad Mossadeq. We had a government we deserved. Thanks

The world you guys live in is very small and defined by a few narrow variables like religious belief and government system. The real one is multifaceted and influenced by millions of actions and decisions.

I have Kagatob ignored so I ahve no idea what he said, but if its anything like what you just posited here, I honestly don't understand how you both could perceive the world this way.

Finally, there is no such thing as Islamic culture. In Azerbaijan, most people are Muslim, and they drink beer on weekends and try to get laid in bars. In Syria, people kill each other as a blood sport. Bangladesh, Iran, Azerbaijan, Oman, Saudi Arabia, Morocco, and the Maldives have NOTHING in common with one another. But hey, they're all Islamic, so I guess nothing else is going on that could possibly explain their differences. They must all be mirror images of each other.

Not sure why I even post here, there really is no point. But if there are degrees of perception, on a scale of 0-10, 0 being batshit and 10 being in possession of objective knowledge of everything that takes place in the universe, you're at about a 1. You're not perceiving the world correctly.

Maximally, 30% of Iran's population supports the government. Honestly, I'd say its more around 20-25%... the problem is, that 20-25% has all of the oil, guns, money, tanks, etc....

It's not easy to simply click your heels together like in the Wizard of Oz and get "the government you deserve." People in Iran are resigned to their fate because they'd rather live an imperfect life than watch their family and nation perish. If you think about it, that makes them way more rational than many people on this Earth. The religious are always portrayed as those who care about the afterlife more than this one, and yet, in this case, as in many, their concerns about quality of life on this plane of existence supersede your belief that they should've done something, which would have to be militant, to eliminate things like misogyny and intolerance that you consider evil. By all means Lune, if you wish to defeat Islam in Iran, I welcome someone trying. But thinking that this is about a weakness of culture is simply misguided at best, willfully ignorant at worst.

There are a lot of people who would give their lives to change Iran... I'm at about 50/50 whether I'm one of them. I wouldn't, however, wish a conflict like what's happening in Syria upon them, even if it meant after 10-20 years of warfare that they might have utopia. The people who would inevitably die are more important than whatever values a person has, after all, if the highest aim of those values isn't to protect human life, than what are they worth anyway?

[KagatobLuvsAnimu]

Originally Posted by Patriam1066 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I have Kagatob ignored

I win forumquest. Yay!

[Nihilist_santa]

Blame the USA for Iran. The C.I.A. waged a propaganda war and had the democratically elected Mohammed Mossadegh thrown out and the Shah placed in power.

[Lune]

Originally Posted by Patriam1066 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So I assume then, that you agree with everything that your government does. After all, you get the government you deserve. As for Iran, I'd like you to google Mohammad Mossadeq. We had a government we deserved. Thanks

The world you guys live in is very small and defined by a few narrow variables like religious belief and government system. The real one is multifaceted and influenced by millions of actions and decisions.

I have Kagatob ignored so I ahve no idea what he said, but if its anything like what you just posited here, I honestly don't understand how you both could perceive the world this way.

Finally, there is no such thing as Islamic culture. In Azerbaijan, most people are Muslim, and they drink beer on weekends and try to get laid in bars. In Syria, people kill each other as a blood sport. Bangladesh, Iran, Azerbaijan, Oman, Saudi Arabia, Morocco, and the Maldives have NOTHING in common with one another. But hey, they're all Islamic, so I guess nothing else is going on that could possibly explain their differences. They must all be mirror images of each other.

Not sure why I even post here, there really is no point. But if there are degrees of perception, on a scale of 0-10, 0 being batshit and 10 being in possession of objective knowledge of everything that takes place in the universe, you're at about a 1. You're not perceiving the world correctly.

Maximally, 30% of Iran's population supports the government. Honestly, I'd say its more around 20-25%... the problem is, that 20-25% has all of the oil, guns, money, tanks, etc....

It's not easy to simply click your heels together like in the Wizard of Oz and get "the government you deserve." People in Iran are resigned to their fate because they'd rather live an imperfect life than watch their family and nation perish. If you think about it, that makes them way more rational than many people on this Earth. The religious are always portrayed as those who care about the afterlife more than this one, and yet, in this case, as in many, their concerns about quality of life on this plane of existence supersede your belief that they should've done something, which would have to be militant, to eliminate things like misogyny and intolerance that you consider evil. By all means Lune, if you wish to defeat Islam in Iran, I welcome someone trying. But thinking that this is about a weakness of culture is simply misguided at best, willfully ignorant at worst.

There are a lot of people who would give their lives to change Iran... I'm at about 50/50 whether I'm one of them. I wouldn't, however, wish a conflict like what's happening in Syria upon them, even if it meant after 10-20 years of warfare that they might have utopia. The people who would inevitably die are more important than whatever values a person has, after all, if the highest aim of those values isn't to protect human life, than what are they worth anyway?

Never once did I say that muslim is a single, homogenous culture. It's a religion spread over several disgusting, loosely related cultures, but that religion tends to imprint certain sets of values on all of them.

You're making my point for me. The "70% of Iranians who don't support the government" don't have the courage or the will to improve their system? Then they don't deserve a better system. Just like here in America, where we are being buttfucked by our politicians, our electorate is still fucking lazy and ignorant enough to say "Man, those fucking politicians, look at them buttfuck us!"....... and then proceed to re-elect every single one of them. That's the government we deserve. Diffusing responsibility throughout a society does not abrogate that responsibility. I am responsible for this situation as much as anyone else.

Originally Posted by Patriam1066 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But thinking that this is about a weakness of culture is simply misguided at best, willfully ignorant at worst.

Why? Why are some societies perpetually corrupt and dysfunctional? Why is every single South American administration one inept, corrupt criminal enterprise after another? Why are Iceland/Canada/Japan etc so comparatively happy, stable, just, one generation after another? Why don't you have the intellectual honestly to admit that some cultures are better at civilization than others? Is that reality just too unpalatable for you, so you reject it?

You think I don't perceive the world correctly because I don't look at it like you do. That's the definition of bigotry.

[Patriam1066]

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Never once did I say that muslim is a single, homogenous culture. It's a religion spread over several disgusting, loosely related cultures, but that religion tends to imprint certain sets of values on all of them.

You're making my point for me. The "70% of Iranians who don't support the government" don't have the courage or the will to improve their system? Then they don't deserve a better system. Just like here in America, where we are being buttfucked by our politicians, our electorate is still fucking lazy and ignorant enough to say "Man, those fucking politicians, look at them buttfuck us!"....... and then proceed to re-elect every single one of them. That's the government we deserve. Diffusing responsibility throughout a society does not abrogate that responsibility. I am responsible for this situation as much as anyone else.



Why? Why are some societies perpetually corrupt and dysfunctional? Why is every single South American administration one inept, corrupt criminal enterprise after another? Why are Iceland/Canada/Japan etc so comparatively happy, stable, just, one generation after another? Why don't you have the intellectual honestly to admit that some cultures are better at civilization than others? Is that reality just too unpalatable for you, so you reject it?

You think I don't perceive the world correctly because I don't look at it like you do. That's the definition of bigotry.

1. Comparing what would have to be a violent insurrection in Iran to voting in America is completely disingenuous. We could vote out our politicians. The ones in Iran, they are the people behind the scenes instructing Assad on his actions. They would make Syria look like a trip to Disneyland compared to what they would do to hold onto their power. The people of Iran have the courage to live in shit rather than to die for a cause that is going to get half of them killed at best, or is futile at worst.

2. I don't disagree with this. But you used South America here, and that's my point. South America isn't one entity. Venezuela and Argentina are getting worse. Uruguay and Chile are getting better. It isn't so simple, just like in the "Islamic world." Other than that, I agree with your premise. My main argument was to say Iran is fucked, but not because the people there are fuckheads, its because their government is the fuckhead element of the society, who also happen to be in possession of everything in the nation.

3. I'm the bigot because I'm telling you that you're wrong about the country I've lived in based upon what you've watched on CNN and what I've experienced in my life? I guess you have a point there in theory, but in practice, I don't see it.

I have said in other threads that people bring their biases and life experiences into arguments, and that these things are unavoidable, so you would be correct to say that I give Iran the benefit of the doubt. But fighting against that regime wouldn't be courage, it'd just be rash. Especially when the Ayatollah is old as fuck and MIGHT (small chance) be replaced by a reformer. There really is no appetite for people to go to war right now... Syria, Iraq, and Afghanistan loom in the collective psyche of the Iranian people. No one wants to see their country ripped apart, especially when there is a chance for reform.

The government you deserve part though...
I really don't think there has ever been a society since the beginning of time where the political / noble / ruling class treated people correctly. Maybe there is a situation where everyone would be represented and treated justly, but I just don't see it. I also don't think the threshold would be "everyone." I'd love to see a government with 80% approval. Russia comes to mind, but that's probably because their media tells them what to think.

[paulgiamatti]

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Paul, it's more about culture than it is about race or religion, Kaga just doesn't frame it that way. And a culture is a perfectly valid thing to dislike, because it's an extremely powerful system of guidance for behavior and it's actually possible to identify.

Even 'moderate' muslims are still extremely religious, with cultural idiosyncrasies that are going to be outright offensive to your typical 'neckbearded, fedora-donning atheist' like myself. Every nation gets the government it deserves. Show me a majority-Islamic society that I can respect, and I'll change my mind.

I agree with all of this, except that Kagatob's statements were anything but flatly racist. As Sam Harris points out, jihadists only account for a small percentage of all Muslims who embody the center of the concentric circle, but it's the Islamists that make up the vast majority and who hold very much the same kind of beliefs as the extremists - beliefs such as killing people for apostacy, or for offending the religion in any way being a good thing. The moderates are only a small fringe element of Islam as a whole - moderates fighting for reform in this day and age is akin to throwing a bucket of water at a cresting tsunami of jihad.

So yes, I completely agree - it's about the cultural ideology of Islam. Culture can either be a very healthy, life-affirming great thing or it can be a toxic, shit-spewing cesspool of hate and bad ideas.

[paulgiamatti]

But I mean, it's not black and white either. Western culture isn't exactly a wonderland itself, as I'm sure we all know.