Your options are...

[Swish]

Originally Posted by Tyym [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

"work for it"

That picture of 3 guilds all sitting in Sky waiting for a pop springs to mind.

[veejur]

Originally Posted by Tyym [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

When you all forced us into this rotation last year, we predicted that the Class R guilds who supported this raiding system would become unsettled as their guild numbers and experience became stronger. Now you have several guilds in viable contention to challenge us and IB. Their only excuse for not moving up is the commitment required in the form of tracking/batphone response.

Because of their unwillingness to actually work for their loot, they are now your forcing the smaller guilds into an unequitable restructuring. The same thing we were forced into when the rotation system was shoved down our throats.

But if you really don't want to work for it, then just stay Class R and keep things status quo. Don't force the smaller guilds into an unequitable position because you guys are truly just too lazy to move up.

^^ This

[JackFlash]

This must be where someone makes a gif of a great depression bread line with all the guys named after blue guilds.

[Daldaen]

I think we've learned what competitive raiding is just fine.

6 FFA targets last week - Sev, Fay, VS, Draco, Maestro, Inny

Taken got VS, Fay and Maestro
IB got Sev and Draco
TMO got Inny

What you fail to understand is our guild isn't made up of exclusively the neckbeards that got those VS, Fay, Maestro kills. Hell I was asleep during all three of them. (Or maybe I was at work for Maestro I forget) There are plenty like myself whom don't want to stare at a wall or are at work and cannot log on or who like sleeping.

For people like myself (a good chunk of our guild) - it is nice there is the opportunity to pseudo plan when we will be able to go for a mob, go for the mob and allow people to log on and make their way there. That's the only way these types of people will see a mob like Venril Sathir. He dies <2min after he spawns during FFA cycles. Whereas in Class R we can allow a solid 30min-1hour to let everyone show up who wishes to participate. Which is the goal of class R, letting everyone experience content

As long as 16-hour variance remains I guarantee no guilds will purposefully move up. You get rid of 16-hour variance and you will see guilds move up eventually.

The issue with it currently is it allows smaller guilds to bypass the typical rotation by pairing up during their "alliance12hourperiod", then pair up again in a month and kill the same mob. When a guild who killed the mob solo at any hour would have to wait another 6 months before they can kill it again.

Small guild A can bring 25 people to Trakanon
Small guild B can bring 15 people to Trakanon

Each guild gets a BP, and some teeth and perhaps spell and a shot at guts.

This pair kills Trakanon twice through a full rotation cycle because Guild B is in slot #3 when Guild A is in slot #1 and it spawns in their window of allying.

BDA brings 40 people to Trakanon

They get 2 BPs all the teeth/spells and a shot at guts.

This guild kills Trakanon once through a full rotation. Because that's how rotations work, you get it and you drop to the bottom until everyone else gets it.

[Argh]

Originally Posted by Daldaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Argh, be honest with me.

Is it unreasonable for me to suggest that any time you pair with a guild, both guilds should share the same rotation slot going forward? Or at the very least both guilds should drop to the bottom of the rotation? Cause that's really the only rotation change in suggesting.

I think, like the dark hours implementation, it will make really close to no impact.

Guilds teaming up to kill shit doesn't really happen outside of really bad hours (8am Traks/Gores). If all guilds participating in a kill will be moved down to the bottom of the order then the end result will be that no guild will help another guild with their shitty spawns and instead will wait out the 3 hour grace period (1 hour in the new proposal) for it to become FFA within class R. Obviously, this will lead to Taken/BDA sniping valuable mobs at the one hour mark. This is all well and fine, however, their argument becomes very hypocritical at this point because they (Taken/Div/BDA) feel that killing a mob at this point (once it has become R FFA) should not move them down to the bottom of the rotation because 'they're picking up everyones slack, and stopping the mobs from going to evil class C guilds, and it ruins their chance for primetime mobs'

Ultimately if you want to impose that everyone be held accountable for their kills, then it should be applied to all kills.

However, I couldn't possibly care less about how all of this shakes out since I am now free from the soul sucking pit of despair that is FAP.

[Daldaen]

I would agree, 1 hour is dumb, should be longer due to the purpose of Class R. I thought 3 was pretty reasonable.

I think that FFA in Class R (3-6hr) kill should drop you as well. You could roll the dice and wait til 6 when truly FFA to avoid it and hope Class C or another Class R doesn't beat you. Or just go for it in that window.

It does make an impact. Removing what I spoke about would shorten the rotations that are unnaturally elongated due to the addition of guilds who, outside of perfect storm conditions, cannot take down mobs solo. These guilds just need to pair up with another guild in a similar situation on the mobs of such difficulty that they cannot bring them down alone. Whether this is done by a tiering system or a mob by mob basis, don't really care. Tiering obviously would directly benefit the larger guilds and mob by mob would benefit the smaller guilds. They can have fun discussing that.

[Tyym]

The difference I am seeing between the Class R guilds and the "evil" Class C guilds is the motivation. While we compete furiously with IB, there is a level of respect outside the raid scene and many of us group together or chat regularly. For us it is not about the loot. Hell a lot of the loot in VP rots or goes to alts. Its about the competition.

For the smaller guilds it is about the loot, or the completion of epics or simply working together to overcome a game obstacle. That's why it is so hard for us to understand where many of you are coming from. Personally I would like more competition up here in Class C with us. There are guilds that are ready. You just need to identify what your motivation is.

Look at IB. They were a shell of a guild for more than a year. When they decided they wanted to regain former glory, they rallied behind Hokushin and allied with Forceful Entry who was already a strong competitor against TMO. Over a short period of time, IB ranks grew with every successful encounter and now they share the top spot on the server only a year later. While I don't prefer using a competitor guild as a shining example, I suggest you guild leaders figure it out what you want and go from there.

Do you simply want loot when its your turn every few weeks out or are you ready to prove yourselves and earn the right to get the big loot the hardway and enjoy every minute of doing it that way.

Morphius 60 Enchanter - The Mystical Order
Tempyst 60 Ranger
Liquidreach 60 Cleric
Kimchi 60 Necromancer

[Mendo]

Originally Posted by Daldaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As mentioned many times in the past - If the goal of Class R was to promote joining Class C... It failed miserably.

Of the Class R guilds taken is the one that has the strongest case for moving. But the number of people willing to track/Poopsock is a very small fraction of the guild, there are certain Neckbeard hours (see normal people sleeptime) where we have no viable force at all, and we don't have the Trakanon Teeth / VP keys to warrant the switch. Nor do we have the 4 Mages and 2 groups willing to poopsock an entire Trak window, which is required to compete on FFA Trak.

You don't want to move to class "C" because you don't want to poop sock and kill a dragon right as it spawns.

Originally Posted by Daldaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This allows guilds to game the system. Small guilds which field 20-man forces are able to get on rotations for mobs. Fine. They should be able to. But you should be able to kill that mob at any time it spawns during the window.

Yet you want all of class "R" to poop sock and kill a dragon right as it spawns?

[Daldaen]

Gonna stop you there.

If it's about competition and not loot you wouldn't be filing petition after petition trying to get your only competition in Class C suspended or loot returned. If you had such a fantastic rapport with IB that kind of stuff wouldn't be happening.

Sure you may enjoy your competition. But saying pixels don't motivate is a flat out lie. May not matter to some of you, eh maybe. But the guild as a whole, certainly.

[Tenlaar]

Originally Posted by Tyym [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

...or are you ready to prove yourselves and earn the right to get the big loot...

That right there is why you can only talk about one guild that you "compete" with. Most adults are not interested in "proving" anything to people on an elf sim and don't care if you think they have "the right" to loot.