First in Force.

[Samoht]

Originally Posted by maestrom [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Proving someone has broken the rule would be pretty easy. Guild A claims Target A. Guild B kills Target A. Guild B has broken the rule. The proof would come when Guild A is in the zone, does a /who, sees that they're the only ones there, and claims the target. When guild B rolls in, guild A will tell guild B that they have claimed the target and they take screen shots.

How do they actually prove which one was there first? This requires more frapsquest and petitionquest as before. This is not a change for the better.

[maestrom]

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

How do they actually prove which one was there first? This requires more frapsquest and petitionquest as before. This is not a change for the better.

I guess I'm making a couple of assumptions.

My first assumption is that it will rarely be a close call as to who actually got in the zone first. I don't imagine it will happen often that two guilds will be sitting at IZ spamming /who and they're actually neck and neck.

If the threshold is set at 24, its really unlikely that 1 guild will get to 24 with the other guild at 23. If it does happen, and the second guild really does feel like they won, they can petition and they can submit screen shots/fraps/GMs can check logs.

I imagine that 99% of cases, 1 guild will say "TOV has 5 targets in window, guild B is there and has claimed X, we can claim Y or Z." And that's how it'll work. If guild B zones in, sees that guild A has 40 people in the zone and petitions anyways, the staff is free to take action for frivolous posts.

Sirken said in his stream that frequently these guilds document the hell out of their raids through fraps and SS and when confronted with fraps they usually back off.

Edit: By "rarely be a close call" I mean it will be rare that one party thinks it legitimately won and didn't. Most of the time, it will be clear to the parties involved who actually won, and if they want to petition, it will be with knowledge that they didn't actually win the race.

[Pokesan]

why wouldn't every guild try to FiF the sock for vulak?

[maestrom]

Originally Posted by Pokesan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

why wouldn't every guild try to FiF the sock for vulak?

Because if Vulak is in window only 1 guild will kill him. If its a guild that has done vulak a dozen times, it's virtually assured of victory. Socking it would be a waste of time for the other guilds and they would lose the ability to claim other targets elsewhere in the game.

Vulak presents other problems though, because he's effectively a triggered spawn. For this reason it might be best to adjust and make Vulak FTE, or make the "hands off" window, where a guild gets a free unmolested shot at a target, only 30 minutes in ToV.

[jcr4990]

Know what'd be a better system? Every mob only spawning on sim repops that happen regularly. Get rid of tracking get rid of variance get rid of poopsocking. Every dragon/raid mob in the game spawns on a random schedule of sim repops once a week or so. It's been suggested many times by many different people and has very little downside and many upsides. Have no idea why it hasn't been done or at least tried.

As far as raiding on P99 goes. Sim repops are just about as fun as it gets imo. Every guild racing around and trying to strategize on what target to go for and try to figure out what other guilds are doing what so you know where to go next. Big guilds can't monopolize everything when it all spawns at the same time so the smaller guilds get to do stuff too. Only potential downside I can see is if the repop happens at a bad time and you happen to be working all day or have other RL obligations and you basically miss all the good raids for a week. I can see that part sucking but I still think overall it'd be better than what we have now.

[am0n]

Originally Posted by maestrom [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The rule says a guild or alliance can claim ONE target. The idea is to force guilds to only claim one target at a time. If a guild is claiming tormax, they cannot also claim Trak.

The whole point of this is to attach a cost to raiding for top guilds. A guild could not disengage from kael when Sev pops, go kill sev, and then come back and expect to have a shot at Tormax. They would have to decide that they want to give up their shot at Tormax in order to kill Sev.

Yes, and I understand what you are saying. What I am saying, though, is guilds will go bipolar on what they are camping to attempt to circumvent your idea. They'll change which spawn they are camping on the fly in an attempt to hold multiple spawns at once.

When you suggested this in another thread I said that you'd need substantial GM enforcement. This is exactly why. Without it, you either have some of the larger guilds that can field multiple groups attempting to cheat the system, or you end up with other guilds calling them on their shit and everything evolving into chaos as they all just fight for spawns.

I like your idea, or any idea that helps to give smaller guilds the chance at something, but many of the raiders in this community are toxic as hell and will do whatever is necessary to get pixels. The only way to curb that is with GM enforcement, and given they aren't interested in FiF and the fact that they have, at best, a skeleton crew, you won't see that enforcement.

[maestrom]

Originally Posted by am0n [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yes, and I understand what you are saying. What I am saying, though, is guilds will go bipolar on what they are camping to attempt to circumvent your idea. They'll change which spawn they are camping on the fly in an attempt to hold multiple spawns at once.

When you suggested this in another thread I said that you'd need substantial GM enforcement. This is exactly why. Without it, you either have some of the larger guilds that can field multiple groups attempting to cheat the system, or you end up with other guilds calling them on their shit and everything evolving into chaos as they all just fight for spawns.

I like your idea, or any idea that helps to give smaller guilds the chance at something, but many of the raiders in this community are toxic as hell and will do whatever is necessary to get pixels. The only way to curb that is with GM enforcement, and given they aren't interested in FiF and the fact that they have, at best, a skeleton crew, you won't see that enforcement.

Guilds won't be able to change their targets on the fly--pressure from other guilds won't let them.

If Tormax and Statue are in window, guild A rolls into Kael. Without anyone in the zone, they are free to pick whichever they choose, and are free to switch back and forth if they want. Guild B shows up. At this point guild A will no longer be able to choose. They will have to pick one, and the moment they do then guild B will immediately pick the other target. Part of the rule is that you MUST communicate clearly to both the zone and to anyone who asks what your claim is. If your guild doesn't shout to the zone that you're claiming a target (or changing a target), or if you as a guild ignore the repeated requests from another guild in the zone to state your claim, then you don't have a claim. I don't imagine this situation will happen much.

The scenario I think you're talking about is as follows

Guild A has 40 people in Kael and both Tormax and Statue are in window. Guild A wants both. Guild B rolls into Kael with 40 people and asks guild A what they're doing. Guild A tries to ignore guild B as long as possible so it can claim whichever target pops first.

In this situation, Guild B would be able to say "Tormax for Guild B." fraps and screenshot it. If Guild A wants to say "No we had tormax" then Guild B would just say "Statue for Guild B", and Guild A would have admitted they have no claim to Statue. No GM's necessary.

I'm not trying to be difficult, I just don't see what one guild would do in the above scenario that would require a GM. What do people think guilds will do that will require GM intervention. I know what they do now. They train the fuck out of each other because you get 10 pullers with a billion trains all going after the same targets and guilds do stuff like open doors so they can try to get a concession.

@troll. I love the idea of sim repops. Especially with 4-5 guilds in ToV, it will force all top guilds into ToV the minute the ground shakes and will let smaller guilds take Kunark/Lodi.

[Expediency]

I love p99 and the only complaint I have with it is the raiding. Any change that resulted in classic raids at least once in a while would be better than what we have now. Constantly camping for FTE and skipping everything/training it away is awful and the only people who want it are those who care more about getting the items than having fun getting them. Right now sky is the only real target where you can crawl through the content like the game intended

[trite]

Originally Posted by Expediency [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I love p99 and the only complaint I have with it is the raiding. Any change that resulted in classic raids at least once in a while would be better than what we have now. Constantly camping for FTE and skipping everything/training it away is awful and the only people who want it are those who care more about getting the items than having fun getting them. Right now sky is the only real target where you can crawl through the content like the game intended

I'm pretty sure you can skip through the content on sky with a keyed necromancer....cost of corpse summoning an entire raid is much cheaper than the plat big guilds spend per raid on recharges in the velious era....

[Duncon]

Originally Posted by jcr4990 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Know what'd be a better system? Every mob only spawning on sim repops that happen regularly. Get rid of tracking get rid of variance get rid of poopsocking. Every dragon/raid mob in the game spawns on a random schedule of sim repops once a week or so. It's been suggested many times by many different people and has very little downside and many upsides. Have no idea why it hasn't been done or at least tried.

As far as raiding on P99 goes. Sim repops are just about as fun as it gets imo. Every guild racing around and trying to strategize on what target to go for and try to figure out what other guilds are doing what so you know where to go next. Big guilds can't monopolize everything when it all spawns at the same time so the smaller guilds get to do stuff too. Only potential downside I can see is if the repop happens at a bad time and you happen to be working all day or have other RL obligations and you basically miss all the good raids for a week. I can see that part sucking but I still think overall it'd be better than what we have now.

I don't raid, but this sounds cool.