Something to tank about

[Glasken]

Alright, I'll bite. It's slow at work.

Out of the gate, lets make it ubundantly clear that this is talking about GROUP TANKS for GROUP CONTENT and not at all addressing raid tanks in classic or Kunark/Velious.

Group content in Classic era. Lets check out these statements point by point.

Originally Posted by sciception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Best to worst tanks.

#1. Shadow Knight (SK) - By far the most effective tank due to the spells Disease Cloud, Clinging Darkness and some say Shadow Vortex (But, I’ve never found that useful). SK’s are one button wonders. All they do is spam their lowest level darkness spell (20 mana snare), and maybe a Disease Cloud (10 mana), to keep the mobs attention. Players that can effectively master the one button rotation may, however, find themselves in precarious situations such as: accidently joining the wrong group, apologizing for already having a group and the awkwardness of telling people your friends list is full. There are, however, some benefits such as: wizard does not have to wait forever to nuke, charm/pet classes being able to send their pets in immediately and the healers being able to sit down to med. As a bonus, both Troll’s and Ogre’s can be SK’s with their over-the-top stats and innate abilities. The incurred experience penalties due race and/or class are easily overcome by the rate at which you will be killing with an SK in your group (seriously, who FD pulls??). Overall, SK is a “Slam” dunk. Nuff said.

I actually agree with most of the comments here, though I would say they are tied for first with paladins if they have access to stun spells out of the gate (I don't recall if they did or not in the classic period). I will however take issue with the idea of just relying on "one button mastery" for this class. Of all the tank classes, this one has the most utility for pulling, damage mitigation, and snap agro. The SK class can have a pretty high skill ceiling due to just the mechanics of feign death alone.

Easy to play well, difficult to master.

Well worth the exp penalty IMO.

Originally Posted by sciception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

#2 Ranger – What????? Yeah, it’s the Ranger. The second on my list of effective tanks is probably the most under-rated of them all. Effective AC is the name of the game, and since Banded Mail will likely be “in-game” day 1, it’s impossible to ignore the agro-whores of EQ. With only 3 less dodge and 15 less parry than the Warrior (@50), the only thing that hinders a Ranger is the inability to wear plate armor at later levels (Oh! and no race that can slam). Some people will claim that Rangers are nothing but gimped Warriors, but give a Ranger a Fire Beetle Eye and watch the Warrior’s cry. Flame lick, a 10 mana spell, is arguably the best snap-agro spell in the game. So much so, that guild’s frequently use Ranger’s for mobs that have Death Touch timers (hence the “Ranger Down” meme we all remember). Furthermore, this amazing ability to hold agro is just the tip of the iceberg. Being ¼ Druid, the Ranger can also root CC (great for pulling as well), snare runners, buff/DS himself, SoW the entire group and even track mobs as they pop. Have a problem with people stealing your pulls? Not happening in a Ranger’s group. The only reason they aren’t listed as number 1 is end game AC, but who’s going to be wearing a full set of plate on their first character anyway? Stamina means very little when it comes down to it, maybe 100-200 hp’s @ 50 and keep in mind that Sol Ro is a long way off, so no Crafted/Ro or BF for you!

Rangers get taunt. Rangers get a bag of tricks (many of which mimic what a shadowknight can do, plus root!!). Rangers wear chain not plate. All solid points. But you are missing a key aspect as to why rangers are generally bad tanks...mitigation tables.

This is getting into the meta a bit, but classes in EQ do not share one big damage table. Casters, Monks, Knights, Warriors...all get their own damage table that modifies their mitigation and avoidance independent of whatever AC you have from gear or buffs. For mitigation, warriors are on top, then knights, monks, casters, and the like.

While a ranger is a great benefit to any group, a bard can tank just as well.

The ranger is another class that has a high skill ceiling to really play well. Make use of all your snare, root, and snap agro abilities to win the hearts of any group.

Originally Posted by sciception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

#3 Paladin – Number 3 on my list is by far the hardest to master. People tend to remember the chain stunning Paladin’s in all their glory, but this won’t be the case on Green Server. Until the Paladin gets his first stun spell at 30, the level 9 Flash of Light spell (FoL) is their primary means of agro (and here is where the “skill” comes into play). FoL by definition is a fear spell, and as advertised it fears, but if the Paladin is able to maintain a position within 5’ of the mob the spell serves instead as a high agro taunt. Unfortunately, unlike the Rangers Flame Lick and the SK’s Clinging Darkness, FoL has no damage over time effect so the mob must be constantly engaged to be effective (and, of course, to prevent the mob from running to his friends). Most well played Paladin’s never stop using this spell, even after acquiring their stun line, since it is “bar none” the most effective means for the Paladin to maintain agro (tossing in a Yaulp here and there). Also, in addition to snap-agro, these ¼ Cleric “Battle Priest” have an arsenal of useful spells/abilities at their disposal. They can Lull for pulls, nuke undead, heal/buff their party, wear plate and eventually they even get the ability to revive their fallen comrades (though this is so late in the game that it can’t be a PRO for leveling). And let’s not forget their Lay on Hands (LoH) ability. An additional means of snapping agro, this massive heal can turn a wipe into a “Hell Yeah,” moment in a blink of an eye. Having this button by your group window will gain you a LOT of esteem in your Cleric and Enchanter circles, and eventually be valued in raids as well.

This should be tied for first with shadowknight. They can root, heal, stun, and take a hit. They bring a lot of utility to a group and can remove some headache from a healer by spot healing or helping to manage agro with root. Solid class, great tank, well worth having one in a group or as a partner for any other class.

Originally Posted by sciception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

#4 Mage Pets – Want a Warrior that roots, procs damage, stuns AND taunts every tick? Then a Magician’s pet is probably the right choice for you. Sure, a Magician isn’t a tank or even a hybrid for that matter, but his pet certainly qualifies. Pets can wear any armor, use any weapon, have innate procs, a 6 second taunt timer, are fully buff-able and you can’t toss a pebble (malachite in this case) without hitting its replacement. Pets will attack or back off as you command, never have to bail because of wife agro, never AFK, never loot, and like a stalker, always seem to have the same play times as you do. But, unlike a stalker, if you’re tired of playing with it you can just tell it to get lost without worrying about what to say when you see it again. Look at it like a master/slave relationship. Want it to sit in one spot or follow you around, then just tell it to. Like it the other way around? Give it some whips. Sounding pretty awesome huh? Unfortunately, pets do have some drawbacks. They tend to be experience-whores and can barely do anything without you telling them to. Mine are always wandering off in the wrong direction and have selective hearing when I ask them to come back. I can’t take them on our walks through public dungeons without them hitting on everyone they meet and I often have to dismiss them until we are alone and making camp. I should mention that my pets get pretty jealous when someone beats on me instead of them, so keep that in mind at certain parties.

Mage pets should be tanking only when there are no melee characters in the group. For a group of casters, a mage pet is great, but pets will not take agro from a player in melee unless you are playing with root and proximity dances. This holds true for any pet class, be it an enchanters charmed pet/animation (great tanks btw, for caster groups), or a necro pet. SK pets and shaman pets are a bit too squishy to tank for a group beyond a few rounds. Also, when grouped, pets do not consume any exp unless they do 100% of the damage to the target. Pets make great tanks in an all-caster group, and great dps when a melee player is available to take hits.

Originally Posted by sciception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

#5 Warrior – The high maintenance tank. No snap agro, no provoke, broken taunt button and a very limited selection of proc weapons makes this tank the absolute worst tank on the list. Sure, you could look at it like a Monk pet for DPS purposes or maybe you want one for raids later, but as a leveling tank…bleh. This list is all about effective tanking while leveling and the only positive thing I can say about it is “It gets an experience bonus!” No disciplines to help leveling, completely gear dependent for everything and has practically no ability to save a healer or enchanter if shit hits the fan. Sure, it can work at a very slow pace, but from my experiences people don’t play this game at impulse speed and the group is going to be heavily reliant upon the Enchanter’s charm pet and the Cleric having 2 DA’s up at all times to survive. Trying to think of something to ease the tension, but nothing is coming to mind. IMHO, A Warrior at launch is basically just extra baggage only a guild mother could love. Hell, they aren’t even going to be the best tanks for raids until April 2020.

I could not agree more. Without proper gearing specc'd for threat generation, a warrior is sub-par compared to one of the knights. However, that gearing will come, and at the top of their game warriors are tied for first simply due to their mitigation, and this only runs further away as the expansions come out. A warrior is a long-haul end-game tank class, but not a great group tank. I also find them to be a bit one-dimensional, but still highly necessary for end game content.

Group with your warrior tank as much as possible. Help them. Raise them up, and they will be your hero when its raid time.

Originally Posted by sciception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Well, I suppose you could add Monk or even an Enchanter’s charm pet to this list but you get the idea. It’s all downhill from here. With very little Planar gear to spread around at the end (only the Plane of Fear for the first 6 months?), and that gear being class specific, there really isn’t much point taking the end game into consideration yet(talking to you Warriors). Anyway, feel free to flame away below. Peace, Love and Cosmic Bunnies.

I would put monks in there with warriors for tanking ability. Threat generation similar to a warrior, but with the squishiness of a ranger. It can work, but until they get itemized I would take a knight first.


This is a good discussion to have. I may be off base with some of my opinions, so lets hear your points and add them to the pile!

The reality is, classic is going to be very different from the world we know on P99Blue today. Casters and pet classes are going to reign supreme until its raid time, and by then good guilds will have either sunk the resources into warriors and knights or have the ability to quickly power level the ones they need.

Everyone seems in a jitter about the exp penalty of knights and bards and monks, but the truth is, if you arnt running a caster-only group, you're gonna want one in the group taking hits, snapping agro, and using their bag of tricks to the fullest.

When it comes to classic era group content, a knight is the better tank. Fight me.

[Danth]

Originally Posted by sciception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

and some say Shadow Vortex (But, I’ve never found that useful).

Originally Posted by sciception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Sure this makes sense, but again, not necessary most of the time.

These comments are mutually exclusive. I disagree with the former, not the latter. Shadow Vortex is not normally a primary hate generation spell. It is however highly useful for certain jobs as elaborated above. Since the latter comment is the newer one I consider you to have corrected yourself. All's good.

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Glasken: I did not bring up differing mitigation tables because P99's host is its own entity and I don't know if anyone has ever done the necessary parsing to see where P99 stands in that regard. What was true in the original game is not necessarily true here so I consider that particular point an unknown.

Danth

[zaneosak]

I have no experience tanking but mained a cleric for all of live kunark thru GoD (i had no alts) i always wanted SK or Paladins almost in any situation. (except for high end raid groups where you had access to multiple of all classes)

[Gustoo]

Warriors do more dps and hold aggro OK.

SK and Pal and Ranger get more hate but the first two are bad dps and the last one is an inferior tank.

Ogre classes are going to be the best tanks in vanilla by a long shot. Their base stats and stun resist are the best. I'm a ranger guy but they don't stand up to an ogre when it comes to tanking. If ogres could be rangers it would be a different story.

All I'm trying to say is that id take any warrior or sk or paladin for tanking duties on green. Monk and Ranger are okay too.

[Jimjam]

There is only 10 difference in defence skill between ranger and warrior on vanilla though...

Furthermore, early game both will be wearing banded, late game both wear mithril; Main difference is hp pool.

Can someone confirm if wiki is right on the level 50 skill cap for defence (in vanilla) is 230? Their avoidance, and mitigation if going for an AC build, is just going to be so far beyond anyone else?

[Glasken]

Originally Posted by Gustoo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Warriors do more dps and hold aggro OK.

SK and Pal and Ranger get more hate but the first two are bad dps and the last one is an interior tank.

Ogre classes are going to be the best tanks in vanilla by a long shot. Their base stats and stun resist are the best. I'm a ranger guy but they don't stand up to an ogre when it comes to tanking. If ogres could be rangers it would be a different story.

Basically my long-winded comments in a nutshell.

I would add the paladin in there however. Yes ogres are great and the race adds a lot to the classes they can play, but they arnt the best group tank just because #ogre. Size is an issue, mobility is an issue, and even a pretty-faced elf paladin can take a hit pretty much as well as an ogre shadowknight can until you start getting into the really hard stuff at 45-50 (damn bashing evil frogs come to mind).

I think it's important to keep the frame of discussion about leveling groups. Fact is, warriors mitigate the best but snap agro the worst, and pathing bugs aside they dont pull any better than just making some tiny trains.

[sciception]

Originally Posted by Glasken [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Alright, I'll bite. It's slow at work.


Rangers get taunt. Rangers get a bag of tricks (many of which mimic what a shadowknight can do, plus root!!). Rangers wear chain not plate. All solid points. But you are missing a key aspect as to why rangers are generally bad tanks...mitigation tables.

This is getting into the meta a bit, but classes in EQ do not share one big damage table. Casters, Monks, Knights, Warriors...all get their own damage table that modifies their mitigation and avoidance independent of whatever AC you have from gear or buffs. For mitigation, warriors are on top, then knights, monks, casters, and the like.

I've been researching original mitigation tables and have found nothing concrete until a 2001 patch where they buffed Warriors by 5 percent. Do you have those tables and how much of a difference are we talking about when leveling?

Mage pets should be tanking only when there are no melee characters in the group. For a group of casters, a mage pet is great, but pets will not take agro from a player in melee unless you are playing with root and proximity dances.

I was 1/2 joking about this, but the proximity agro is none the less a solid point I forgot to include.

Everyone seems in a jitter about the exp penalty of knights and bards and monks, but the truth is, if you arent running a caster-only group, you're gonna want one in the group taking hits, snapping agro, and using their bag of tricks to the fullest.

Exactly, don't hate the hybrids. They are by far the best choice.

I pretty much agree with you on most of the points you made. I am desperately searching for the mitigation tables from 1999, but even if it was 20-30 percent better for a Warrior it doesn't matter much if the Warrior isn't the one getting hit. I understand that they will have their place in raids and supporting them is good, but for leveling I am sticking to my statements on the matter.

[sciception]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Glasken: I did not bring up differing mitigation tables because P99's host is its own entity and I don't know if anyone has ever done the necessary parsing to see where P99 stands in that regard. What was true in the original game is not necessarily true here so I consider that particular point an unknown.

Yeah, someone just brought that up. I can't find anything on the original mitgation tables at all.

Danth

[Danth]

You won't find all the information you're looking for because it's not out there. For many years AC was broken on P1999. Any threads pre-dating about mid 2015 are thus useless for your purpose. Armor was fixed in 2015 and a modest amount of trial was conducted by myself and others to confirm that point, but that's about the limit of what I ever saw. Most testing was done with Warriors, a little with Knights, and virtually nothing with Rangers or other light melee. Only the developers who programmed it know the details for sure, and in true classic spirit they aren't spelling it out.

What we have to go on in-game is that Rangers mitigate sufficiently for most group content, including effectively all "normal" group content. Shields should in this case not be forgotten even by Rangers since P1999 uses the slightly out-of-era shield overcap bonus.

EDIT: In the original game Warriors had 90% AC effect, Knights 75% and Rangers lower still (I forget offhand). Knights had a tough time and Rangers were mana-sponges. They seem to do better than that on P1999 in my experience.

Danth

[sciception]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There is only 10 difference in defence skill between ranger and warrior on vanilla though...

Furthermore, early game both will be wearing banded, late game both wear mithril; Main difference is hp pool.

Can someone confirm if wiki is right on the level 50 skill cap for defence (in vanilla) is 230? Their avoidance, and mitigation if going for an AC build, is just going to be so far beyond anyone else?

Love to know myself. Also, the Ranger is going to have a higher avoidance multiplier, so until I see a table with class specific mitigation differences I won't be changing the order. I probably still wouldn't change Paladin to #2 due to the insane learning curve compared to Rangers.