Let's talk CLASS BALANCE

[Kika Maslyaka]

the thing is- the people who run P99 are not interested in making a better game, they want things exactly how they suck... err were back then [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[gnomishfirework]

You are directing this to the wrong people.

EQLive has addressed many of your issues. Problem solved.

[Zuranthium]

Originally Posted by garyogburn [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Gonna have to disagree with shaman pets being OP. Sure, they provide free damage, but the 55 pet (the last pet we get on this server) Is hardly better than the 49 pet, and will do about half the damage of the 50s mage/necro pets.

Shaman pets allow shamans the choice to use slow while soloing. Given two weapons they do some damage, but soloing is very slow, especially with kunark mobs. Our buffs make them surprisingly resilient, but hell, I can tank mobs that are slowed, too.

But heres a question: how much does Torpor change the healing game for shamans?

Shaman were the only class that could solo the roaming dragons in Velious. The pet may be weaker than the Magician/Necro pets but it still provides a considerable amount of extra damage for the Shaman (more than having a whole extra DoT line) at little extra expense and when soloing against mobs where it can hold aggro/survive, that means the Shaman also doesn't have to spend energy on root or engage in melee themselves.

Again, the pet allows them to provide extra damage to a group that is comparable to an INT caster when you combine it with their other damage capability and mana-regen (and that's not even taking into account HASTE, which buffs up the damage for the Physicals in the party if a better one is not present), and they get SoW, and they get heals, AND they get amazing debuffs.

Without the pet, a Shaman could still solo just fine. They would no longer be one of the best solo classes in the game from Level 34+, but they would still be better off than many other classes. Improve their self-only melee buff line such that they would be more effective at soloing by using slow + DoT's + swinging their weapon, if soloing capability is a concern.

I mean, if we are going to talk about classes not being able to SOLO very well, then we better talk about Warriors and Rogues. The latter especially get the short end of the stick. I do believe that out-of-combat regen should be increased for the "Physical" based classes, FYI. The Bandaging skill should be buffed to allow for that in a such way as to require some effort.

But, back to your last question, the Cannibalize becomes more and more powerful for a Shaman as they go up in level. Each cannibalize skill becomes more efficient and the heals the Shaman has to heal themself from the health lost from cannibalize keep getting more efficient as well. Which is why I said that even IF the Druid's healing capabilities were vastly improved, they still wouldn't be as good of a defensive character as a Shaman on their own because of the fact that, in addition to the Shaman's superior energy management, the Shaman's slow debuff will prevent FAR more damage over time with that one cast than any single healing spell a Druid could cast.

However, IF the Druid's healing capabilities were indeed improved considerably, then that means they could fill in for a Cleric in many instances. The Cleric would still be a better healer than a Druid, they would still have better defensive buffs, and they would still be essential for parts of the game, and they would still have the very important Ressurect line...but they would no longer be necessary for the majority of the higher level content. When you want to go fight a GOD or some other especially hard boss or area, then it's perfectly acceptable for the game to require you to have a Cleric (or multiple) in order to win. But you shouldn't need a Cleric just to go fight through any given higher level dungeon. When that happens, the game becomes "Well, there's no Clerics available, so it looks like we can't play today".

[Kika Maslyaka]

all good points. Too bad The Vision is too fucked up to allow deviation

I really liked how they set up healers in EQ2 - everyone had their own style. Cleric had direct heals and reactive heals, druid was heal over time, and shaman prevented damage with runes.

And yeah I totally agree than having just ONE mandatory healer out of 14 freaken classes is dumb beyond believe.

[Ennoia]

Originally Posted by randal.flagg [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Its a discussion, get over it. I don't know why people flame so much... its so pointless and just distracts from a genuinely interesting conversation.

It's so pointless to discuss class balance because that's how the game is/was/always has been.

[odizzido]

A shaman and a necro can do some pretty decent healing. Necros can heal for 125 a tick forever, and with a shaman slowing harder mobs and healing when needed you can take some pretty tough camps. Obviously a cleric is better than both classes combined...most of the time....but I don't think a cleric is required for post 50 kunark dungeons with most areas.

Anyways I think it is pretty fair. If you want to do the most DPS you pay the price of being useless outside of a group.

The only two classes I feel got the shaft are rangers and wizards. Wizard nukes are not really that much better than mage nukes, and mages get a badass pet. Ports, while nice, certainly do not make up for this. Rangers are pretty much rogues with no backstab. The spells they get instead are next to useless.

[Zuranthium]

Originally Posted by Ennoia [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's so pointless to discuss class balance because that's how the game is/was/always has been.

Several people keep making that statement, but that statement is a blatant lie. There is no such thing as one set "that's how the game is/was/always has been."

Again, I will say: Class balance, as well as a multitude of other game features, changed many times during the Classic era. This very server has constantly made specific decisions as to how it wants things to be. This very server is not an exact replica of Everquest at ANY point in its history. This server is trying to replicate an original EQ experience in the most fair and effective ways possible. When we first played EQ, a lot of the flaws didn't really matter because the game itself was so enrapturing. Now that we no longer have the "ignorance is bliss" perception towards the game, steps should be taken to make it the best game it can possibly be with regards to recapturing the ESSENCE of what original EQ was.

Originally Posted by odizzido [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Anyways I think it is pretty fair. If you want to do the most DPS you pay the price of being useless outside of a group.

The game is inherently ABOUT being in groups, though. You can't even solo very well at the higher levels. How is it fair that melee classes do 3x the damage, or more, of caster classes whose primary roles are to deal damage? Also, Shadowknights can solo quite well, so that ruins the argument you've put forth (note - I am not attacking you, just trying to set forth the facts here).

[Aprio]

It's moot, the "class balances" you discuss about the other wisdom classes being able to heal effectively were not implemented on live till PoP. P99 stops at Velious (thank god). If you want to heal effectively play a cleric. Don't moan that your not as good as the cleric because the cleric sure as heck isn't screaming about being able to solo like a beast.

The game has classes that will do what you want, read the class descriptions maybe?

[Fryhole]

I've been itching to comment on this since I saw the thread the other day. I had a 55 druid that I retired around mid-Velious.

You're right, you pretty much can't solo heal a group (or possibly a bad group) - you need to adapt. Throw another priest class in, or grab an enchanter - a decent one which will control your groups pace. (and double your MP regen) This game was designed with trade-offs in mind. If you have any kind of advantage over another class, you usually pay for it. The druid IS the jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none, and that's just how it is, paid for in full.

It's all about the play style you're looking for - if you want an extremely mobile priest class that can solo incredibly well (esp with ES vambraces & the AoE lightning staff), cast big nukes and evac you don't really have a lot of choices. Things are even better outdoors.

- You can solo extremely well (root rot, quad kite, porcupine)
- Very high mobility
- Decent nukes
- Big game hunter (tracking & killing rares)

Trade offs
-No resurrection
-Not going to be the MH on a raid
-Can do almost anything another class can, except not as good
-Most likely not going to solo something that summons

I think the changes you're looking for are only going to see the light of day if you start your own server.

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This server is trying to replicate an original EQ experience in the most fair and effective ways possible.

You might think this, but it's not the case.

[Extunarian]

Maybe I don't play my character right, but at pretty much any given level from 1-54 a mage of equal level could solo more efficiently than my shaman.

At 54 my pet tops out at level 36, hits for 51 and costs 500 mana. Since the mana cost is so high you don't want him dying so you toss on regrowth & talisman, and his DPS is so low you need to give him STR+haste. You also need to slow every mob the dog will tank, and then root because the pet can't out-agro our Slow, so suddenly your 'manaless dot' is kind of expensive to maintain. Did I mention it hits for 51? Sometimes?

A 54 mage gets to choose from a level 46 water pet, air pet or earth pet, but probably will just chain cast his level 42 fire pet of facerape with built-in DS for 200 mana a pop.

Necros too are more efficient than shaman when it comes to bringing down single mob after single mob after single mob.

Of course a druid doesn't need to worry about a pet because they just quad for 3 minutes and then turn into a tree and go do the dishes for 6 minutes. I'm not even sure why you would want a pet for quadding. And though I've never parsed it, I would bet that a druid's DS adds more DPS to a group than a wimpy shaman pet.

Basically, you can always overlook the deficiencies of another class and think 'wow my paladin would be so much better if it just had feign death. SK's are so overpowered!' but you'd be discounting the price they had to pay in another area for that skill.