Shaman points allocation...

[purist]

You can really tell who plays a Shaman and who doesn't by these reading responses (see the guy who said anyone who doesn't put all in STA and use Rage is a bad Shaman who will get kicked from his groups). I suggest listening to people who actually have Shamans like Jeremy and Skorge. They would all agree that putting all in STA is unwise. You get about 3 HP per sta at level 50-60 on a Shaman.. So 20 points in STA, you get 60 HP... You realize that doesn't even amount to one Cannibalize: II cast? Instead you could've put 20 points in WIS and increased your mana pool by 200, and focused your gear on +hp instead.

tldr; Dump all in wis, focus gear on +hp instead of +wis

[etplante]

Originally Posted by purist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

tldr; Dump all in wis, focus gear on +hp instead of +wis

[Weekapaug]

Originally Posted by Massive Marc [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

AC is screwy on this server.
175 WIS is... way to low.
90% of the time when grouping as a shaman AC/STA doesn't matter.
Shamans can buff every stat but wisdom/int. No need to invest in STA. As others have said, STA doesn't scale well on a Shaman. HP/Mana gear is probably better after achieving 200Wis.

I guess you could say it comes down to play style. I'd rather root rot 4 mobs then melee down 1.

You will notice that we are on a classic server and are limited in gear choices, depending on class. If you keep it balanced as you go, you will get the best use of the available gear as you progress through the levels. If you max WIS ASAP you pretty much have to build your shammy like a druid. I have one of those already, and when playing my shaman I like to be able to take a hit. I duo a lot, indoors when possible, so being able to play the class to its fullest is important to me, weather I get to pick ideal mobs to kill or not.

How's that root rotting on mobs that summon?

[Nagash]

Originally Posted by soup [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Oh, and Iksar = no JBB = fail

I am aware of nothing a shaman with a JBB can do that a shaman without a JBB can't. Sure it's handy, but that's all it is, handy.

[soup]

Originally Posted by Nagash [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am aware of nothing a shaman with a JBB can do that a shaman without a JBB can't. Sure it's handy, but that's all it is, handy.

It's a hell of a lot more than "handy" when leveling from 45 on.

Past that, it's manafree DPS. I don't know how someone can be like "Oh, manafree DPS, that's neat, I guess" but like I said, depends on your play style. For mine, it's a hell of a lot better than "handy"

[Swish]

Thanks guys, I'm fairly convinced that 25 into wis is a good idea! I see the stamina side as well but the benefits of that sound like they'll wear off as levels progress.

So, its down to a troll vs ogre situation...

Read somewhere that troll shamans can get hold of a special snare/darkness clickie - is that enough of a reason to barrel roll a troll? Is it an effective item? Wish I could find the name of it.

Further comments appreciated, want to make the best use of race creation here [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Thoughtseize]

Originally Posted by Swish [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So, its down to a troll vs ogre situation...

Read somewhere that troll shamans can get hold of a special snare/darkness clickie - is that enough of a reason to barrel roll a troll? Is it an effective item? Wish I could find the name of it.

Further comments appreciated, want to make the best use of race creation here [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This has been discussed to death. Troll's get regen and regent symbol of inny (clinging darkness click) while Ogre's get immunity to melee stuns.

Troll: regen @ 60 means an extra canni III a minute and a snare that lasts 6-7 ticks and is a slight movement decrease.

Ogre: immunity to melee stuns.

[Messianic]

Originally Posted by soup [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's a hell of a lot more than "handy" when leveling from 45 on.

Past that, it's manafree DPS. I don't know how someone can be like "Oh, manafree DPS, that's neat, I guess" but like I said, depends on your play style. For mine, it's a hell of a lot better than "handy"

Originally Posted by Reiker
There was a "discussion" about the usefulness of JBB awhile ago on this forums. My stance is fairly anti-JBB. I'm also curious why you need to root the mob, you'll never lose aggro over your pet (which is good, shaman pet is a horrible tank compared to the shaman).

Anyways, regarding JBB. This item is very good when you can first use it (45) but after awhile it actually becomes detrimental to use. I see you mentioned Pox, which would assume you were JBBing in PoP, which I don't recommend.

As I mentioned before, the strength of a shaman is no downtime. Any time you're not casting a spell you're wasting time. Every action a shaman takes can be represented in "time efficiency" instead of "mana efficiency." The JBB does 263 damage after an 8 second cast time, or 32.875 dps. The benefit of the JBB is that it's mana free. If there's any class that doesn't care about the mana cost of something, it's shaman. If you weren't clicking JBB above, you could afford to cast spells such as Blood of Saryrn. Blood of Saryrn takes 3 seconds to cast and costs 535 mana. To regain that mana it'll take about 6 cannis, or 30 seconds. Blood of Saryrn cost you 33 total seconds. That may seem like a lot until you consider that focuses, Flowing Thought, AAs, and mana regen buffs will make this even more efficient (but won't affect JBB). Blood of Saryrn does 2324 total damage, or 70.42 dps when considering the time lost to canni back mana. Again note that the time decreases with focuses, etc, increasing the potential dps by a lot.

Basically, the JBB would be an amazing and potentially overpowering item in the hands of any other class besides a shaman. Many use one early and get attached to it, not understanding that it's actually hindering them.

Notes: For whatever reason I confused Pox of Bertoxxulous with Breath of Ultor so I wrote this in the context of PoP, where JBB is fairly bad for the reasons above. Although definitely more useful in Kunark and Velious, I look at it like this:

I generally camp my own JBBs. I love soloing the 4 crypt nameds in seb for the phats. If you can hold that camp, a JBB is most likely not going to help you much. You're better off just DPSing / canning / torporing as normal. Even if the dps is on par with JBB, a JBB interrupt is a lot worse than say a canni interrupt so it's still not as good of an option. One strategy to use with the JBB is to click it immediately after casting a normal spell, since you'll save a couple seconds (item clickies ignore global spell cooldown). Chain clicking defeats this advantage, though. If you're not a top tier shaman or aren't very good at the "shaman gameplay" (which is a lot different than any other caster in some ways) the JBB can seem pretty awesome and is a pretty awesome leveling tool at 45. I'd just much rather farm and sell them for 15k+ a pop.

In Velious they get even less useful, due to better spells (Canni4 is insane) and high cold resists.

Reiker pretty much settled the issue for me. If you want to min-max, thinking in terms of "manafree DPS" isn't a good way to analyze it. You should always analyze it in contrast with alternatives, which is what Reiker did.

[soup]

Originally Posted by Messianic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Reiker pretty much settled the issue for me. If you want to min-max, thinking in terms of "manafree DPS" isn't a good way to analyze it. You should always analyze it in contrast with alternatives, which is what Reiker did.

You can also look at the JBB as being almost 44 DPS (263/6) since you can start the cast during the 2 second after casting a spell. Past that, the math in that post is reliant on being 60 and having torpor, since after all, canni isn't free. If you're already low on health and waiting on regen and aren't exactly loaded on mana, I'd rather be doing a JBB dance than canni'ing myself even closer to death.

And manafree DPS is relevant if you value convenience. If I'm soloing, I can (going to use the blood of saryrn example) do 2324 damage and get the mana back in 30 seconds after canni'ing 6 times and monitoring the med ticks to make sure I sit at the appropriate times to do an efficient canni dance, or I can be watching TV and eating a sandwich while mashing 111 11 111111 1111 11 11 111 1 11. Obviously if you just do that all the time you're failing pretty hard, but added convenience in soloing (something I do a LOT of) has a HUGE value to me, so like I said, it comes down to how you play. The value is in more than just the numbers [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Zuranthium]

Reiker's post is excellent but here's the one flaw in his argument (which is actually not relating to what he's talking about and was just an aside in that whole post):

Basically, the JBB would be an amazing and potentially overpowering item in the hands of any other class besides a shaman.

He assumes that JBB are not overpowered because it is less powerful than what a Shaman can already do with their own spell casting and mana regen. He doesn't take into consideration that Shaman themselves might be overpowered at the higher levels. Which they are. No doubt about it. Their mana regen in combination with everything else than can do makes them so vastly superior to a Druid or INT caster (Enchanter aside) that is an embarrassment.

Which is why I said in the other thread that Shaman shouldn't have pets (and Druids should heal better and resists should be fixed so that Magicians/Necros and sometimes even Wizards aren't crap against most of the high level content). Shaman already have amazing power. Giving them the pet, even though it's not a strong pet, is like taxing the poor more heavily so that the rich can become richer. Plus it goes against flavor that a Shaman can have a wolf following them around everywhere and a Druid (or even Ranger), who are specifically attuned to animals, can not.