The best bard on the raid should be in the tank group

[wuanahto]

Originally Posted by Naethyn [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Maybe in the current raid meta, but historically raid meta can change, and optimizations like bard in the tank group are what kills mobs.

so 50 rogues, couple pullers, few tanks and just enough alt account clerics?

[7thGate]

Usually in the parses I've seen Bard is second highest DPS on Vindi behind whoever is charming Bvellos, unless Yetarr is involved.

[aaezil]

Originally Posted by Naethyn [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Bard produces 61 damage shield.

Bard produces 20 mana a tick.
20 mana a tick = 200 mana per minute
Complete heal = 350 mana
17.5 bard ticks = 1 Complete Heal
10 minute fight = 2000 mana
5 complete heals
7 minutes = 1,400 mana
1,400 mana / 350 = 4 CH
5 clerics * 4 CH = 20 CH per 7 minutes

*A bard singing two DS songs and CHA can cap an ogre warrior on DI.

Doesnt your guild bring like 150 people to each dragon justsaying

[Videri]

What are they supposed to do, tell some of them to go home?

[aaezil]

Originally Posted by Videri [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What are they supposed to do, tell some of them to go home?

Im just concerned why bother with min max at that point

[enjchanter]

Unironically I always thought it would actually be fun to be a dps bard on raids. Not personal dps , but like in the melee groups doing atk / ds / resist songs instead of mana bot

Sadly raiding is brain dmg tho

[Naethyn]

Originally Posted by enjchanter [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Unironically I always thought it would actually be fun to be a dps bard on raids. Not personal dps , but like in the melee groups doing atk / ds / resist songs instead of mana bot

Sadly raiding is brain dmg tho

Determining if bards providing atk to a full group of rogues is better than mana song is next on my list to figure out.

[7thGate]

Originally Posted by Naethyn [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Determining if bards providing atk to a full group of rogues is better than mana song is next on my list to figure out.

Its hard to tell because the impact of +ATK is hard to parse out and it probably varies a lot by mob AC. My very rough approximation from experience is that Avatar is approximately +10% damage. Epic Bard is about half an Avatar, so guesstimating +25% of a Rogue from boosting a group, then they bring their own melee which is probably like 1/3 of a Rogue. Might be a bit better than that or a bit worse, but likely below a Rogue in total damage added.

Its obviously better to be pumping Rogue DPS vs. cleric mana on a fight like Trak or anything in VP where there's a lot of burst need and the fight is going to be done in 20 seconds. For something like AOW, if you have a 7 minute AOW, your math would indicate 20 CHs, which would be like 15-20 seconds of additional cleric mana for the raid to DPS. Raid is DPSing at 2380 for that time, so you basically do about 35-50k damage from extending the raid's DPS lifetime.

I'm almost positive you don't do 83 dps from boosting the DPS group, that's probably close to top tier rogue performance and I've never seen a non-pet break that level on Avatar (I also don't generally group with rogues running BIS though, I wouldn't be surprised if a BIS rogue could hit that sometimes).

Overall, its probably a shift where on some targets its better, some its worse and some its kind of equivalent-ish. Also really depends on how much DPS vs. cleric mana you have going on.

[WarpathEQ]

In summary every group should have a bard or you're doing it wrong!

I personally prefer battle barding, in the fight, swinging hands, and driving DPS.

Also don't forget about how nice those resist songs are for AoEs when the clerics are hiding around the corner or behind the ledge.

[Ciderpress]

Bards shouldn't exist. They just piss everyone off. Everyone gets annoyed when you swarm kite cause it takes forever, you usually suck in groups, and I don't like dealing with your songs that are always fading and sharing icons with actual good buffs that I want to keep. I don't think a raid was ever won or lost due to the presence of a bard. Kiting mobs around on raids is basically a time saving exploit so that doesn't count either.