AC softcap and low level hardcap discussion

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yes, I agree it is mostly redundant. It would mostly apply to fighting red mobs I suspect, if in fact Haynar's formula is in effect.

The squelch point for a level 45 mob was 200 AC. Haynar's formula implies a cap of 199 at level 29, so it would only come into play for a player under 29 fighting a level 45 mob. Almost completely irrelevant.

I don't know what that mob's squelch point, but the data is consistent with a squelch point under 55 AC. In order to rule out that possibility you would first need to find the mob's squelch point. To find evidence supporting or disproving the existence of Haynar's formula you need to fight a mob where the mob's squelch point is higher than the Haynar cap.

This is what I meant by the midpoint. Find the worn AC value for a mob such that there's an equal number of min-hits and max-hits. Get a toon with a Haynar cap of about that value. Wear AC that hits the squelch point. If the results show almost no max-hits, the Haynar cap is not in effect. If the results show an equal number of max-hits, the Haynar cap is a hardcap. If the results are somewhere in between, the Haynar cap is a softcap.

Does that makes sense?

The main problem I have with this theory is Haynar specifically added this formula to solve a problem. Based on his post it didn't sound like the problem was a niche issue like low levels fighting reds. It was more about how effective AC was as you equip more.

But I can do a few more test to confirm there isn't a "squelch point" before 55 AC. What AC do you want me to test?

[bcbrown]

I would suggest using a level 10 toon to find a mob with a squelch point above 55 AC. Then rerun the same experiment as before on a level 5 toon with AC of 25, 55, squelch-point.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I would suggest using a level 10 toon to find a mob with a squelch point above 55 AC. Then rerun the same experiment as before on a level 5 toon with AC of 25, 55, squelch-point.

I don't think you need to do the level 10 test.

My data already shows near identical results for 55 AC and 178 AC. We also know that going from 23 AC to 55 AC is a 35% damage reduction, so clearly more AC is working somewhere between 23 AC and 55 AC.

What it sounds like is I need to do a test at 40 AC and 50 AC to determine if I get identical results to the 55 AC test and 178 AC test sometime before 55 AC. If I get those results, then a "squelch point" exists somewhere between 23 AC and 55 AC. If I see damage reduction improvements instead at 50-54 AC, that would mean Haynar's formula is in effect.

Is that fair?

[bcbrown]

No, that's insufficient. You would still have the possibility of this mob having a squelch point of 55 AC.

You need to find a mob with a squelch point above the Haynar cap of the toon you're using for the experiment.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No, that's insufficient. You would still have the possibility of this mob having a squelch point of 55 AC.

You need to find a mob with a squelch point above the Haynar cap of the toon you're using for the experiment.

A level 10 toon would have quite a bit more defense skill, so that may throw off the test to be honest. That is my hesitation.

How about this. I find a level 5 skeleton and leave it up. I will level to 6 on my bard, and go back to that mob. I'll check if I get damage reduction between 55 AC and 61 AC. If 61 AC becomes the new cap, this will show 55 AC isn't the squelch point, and Haynar's formula is in effect.

Fair?

[bcbrown]

The concern about whether the squelch point is truly only a mob characteristic is a legitimate one. My testing was done on toons who all had 200 defense. Here's the experiment I was thinking about last night when I first read this thread:

First, identify 4-6 mobs across a range of levels. Something like 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, and ideally each mob has no level variation. Find the upper squelch point, and the midpoint. This will mean multiple 5-minute fights, each time subtracting 10 worn AC, until you hit the squelch point. Then repeat the same process to find the midpoint.

To address the question of whether the squelch point is impacted by defense skill, repeat for each of these mobs as you level a toon up to 25 or 30, running the process every 5 levels, for every mob of the same or lower level. So at level 15 you'd do the measurements against the level 5, 10, 15 mob.

Now you've got a handful of mobs with known squelch points and are ready to test the existence of an AC cap. Calculate what level gives a Haynar cap at the midpoint for each mob. Fight each mob with a toon at that level, with worn AC equal to the squelch point.

If the cap doesn't exist, the results will have minimal max hits. If there's a hardcap, the results will show equal min and max hits. If there's a softcap, there will be some number more min hits than max hits.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The concern about whether the squelch point is truly only a mob characteristic is a legitimate one. My testing was done on toons who all had 200 defense. Here's the experiment I was thinking about last night when I first read this thread:

First, identify 4-6 mobs across a range of levels. Something like 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, and ideally each mob has no level variation. Find the upper squelch point, and the midpoint. This will mean multiple 5-minute fights, each time subtracting 10 worn AC, until you hit the squelch point. Then repeat the same process to find the midpoint.

To address the question of whether the squelch point is impacted by defense skill, repeat for each of these mobs as you level a toon up to 25 or 30, running the process every 5 levels, for every mob of the same or lower level. So at level 15 you'd do the measurements against the level 5, 10, 15 mob.

Now you've got a handful of mobs with known squelch points and are ready to test the existence of an AC cap. Calculate what level gives a Haynar cap at the midpoint for each mob. Fight each mob with a toon at that level, with worn AC equal to the squelch point.

If the cap doesn't exist, the results will have minimal max hits. If there's a hardcap, the results will show equal min and max hits. If there's a softcap, there will be some number more min hits than max hits.

I will try my test first. Honestly I don't have time to level a character to 30 just to do all of this.

If you are worried about an overlap between the squelch point and the Haynar cap, increasing your level by 1 would show you if the squelch point was 55 AC or not.

If I tested 10 different level 5 mobs, and the AC cap was 55 for all of them, that would be evidence of the Haynar cap as well. This is because the Haynar cap and the squelch point would be 100% redundant if they were always the same value.

[Snaggles]

Maybe it’s a silly question, but DSM has access to a 60 SK and can even progressively parse by adding gear from his nearby corpse. Arguably knight AC is one of the more interesting tests since they can tank almost any mob in the game (not to mention everything non-raid based).

Is the issue finding a healer to run parses with? Freeport gate guards hit remarkably weak for being level 61. Doubling for 74-200 with a zone line an inch away.

The nice thing is you can always find another person who’s level 60, with a different class/gear, who can hop in for a few minutes of bashing.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Maybe it’s a silly question, but DSM has access to a 60 SK and can even progressively parse by adding gear from his nearby corpse. Arguably knight AC is one of the more interesting tests since they can tank almost any mob in the game (not to mention everything non-raid based).

Is the issue finding a healer to run parses with? Freeport gate guards hit remarkably weak for being level 61. Doubling for 74-200 with a zone line an inch away.

I was thinking of testing with my Shaman actually. He has a lot of raid AC gear. I should be able to test if an AC softcap exists, as I have plenty of AC to play with, and a Shaman's softcap is probably lower.

My SK isn't swimming in AC gear, so I may not even hit any caps.

[Snaggles]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I was thinking of testing with my Shaman actually. He has a lot of raid AC gear. I should be able to test if an AC softcap exists, as I have plenty of AC to play with, and a Shaman's softcap is probably lower.

My SK isn't swimming in AC gear, so I may not even hit any caps.

I thought based on the running theory it’s pretty easy to hit the cap. I don’t know stuff about squelches though [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

People say 1200+ is the magic number. It would be interesting to see if that’s placebo or measurable reality as it might influence the use of HGL’s, shields, and other items (BP of Eradication vs Vindi), etc.