Starting a warrior

[President]

As a half elf warrior with decent starting Dex I really never had much problems tanking once I got my hands on an Obsidian Shard. Even though I went from pretty much level 22-46 while using a shard in main hand and a non-proccing silvery war axe in the off hand, I almost never had trouble holding aggro until I was low 40's. Though, I also made it a point not to attempt fighting mobs much higher level than me. Now that I have SSoYx2 and FBSS, it is even easier. In-fact, in the planes, I will generally pull aggro off of SK's or Pally's going all out, UNLESS they get multiple spells off before I can get into fighting range. Even then, sometimes I will pull it off part way through the fight.

The problems I had with holding aggro existed when the DPS classes started attack before I had been able to do damage. As long as the DPS classes held of a couple seconds, I generally did not have trouble keeping it on my most of the fight. For melee classes they should be able to engage shortly after the warrior does and not have a problem. A spell caster can easily pull off a mob early on in the fight if they wish.

Also, while leveling up, I consistently had healers tell me a warrior tanking was much easier on their mana than SK/Pally.

The times I see when a SK/Pally will shine is when they are tanking dark red mobs. In this case, the warrior is at a serious disadvantage as they cannot taunt, their melee dps goes down, and the chance of proc resists is higher. Obviously an SK and Pally would do better in this area as they can constantly spam spells.

[Never_Rest99]

sk/bards/pally

tank better than a war 1-44 + gear

even with obsidian shards pre 44 and or ssoy post 37 they still have trouble from what ive seen

disease cloud is the best instant aggro in game, pallys with blind hold it well, and bards with snaresong and decent gear can hold it down if no dedicated tank

i hear nothing but complaints from warriors 1-49 they sucked in vanilla and dont get decent till kunark when they can really tank

[Weekapaug]

Originally Posted by Phil [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I didn't read all of this, but I think my original point still stands. I have to slow dps when I'm grouped with a warrior, but when I'm with an SK or paladin I just go all out. It's not a matter of me being impatient or lazy, it's a matter of me being able to do the most dps possible because the more I do the better off our group is. My sole job in a group is to do as much damage as possible without tanking. Any given class can tank if given enough time to hold agro...what makes a good tank is needing as little amount of time possible on the mob to build that agro.

People pointed out that a lot of warriors perhaps don't gear themselves properly and this could be a big part of the problem. However, if warriors have to gimp their damage by stacking dex just to be able to hold agro, then doesn't this still make paladins and sks better tanks by being able to do more damage as well as hold agro?

Again this is only what I've found through the grouping stages of the game. Maybe warriors are better tanks for raid mobs? I don't know, I'm only level 39.

I realize my original post is long, but there's no easy simple way to explain it really....I will try with this....

Example: Wizards can do the best and most efficient DPS by nuking from the start also, but they will pull aggro off of pretty much any tank. Healers having to heal them, or losing them to death, thus losing their DPS entirely and requiring even more mana for a rez is even more of a time and mana sink for the group than losing a fraction of their DPS if they had just exercized restraint from the beginning. Which is why they don't drop big nukes from the beginning. In a game that essentially boils down to mana, HPs and aggro, the same thing applies to any DPS class.

It comes down to this:

A) It goes without saying that aggro needs to be on the tank and stay on the tank. In the grand scheme of things, you having to wait a few rounds to start DPSing is less of a loss to the group overall than the consequences of pulling aggro off of the tank, getting yourself or others killed, needing a heal for yourself or others due to bouncing aggro, etc.

B) Post-classic (and probably now although it's not noticeable), clerics healing warriors are more efficient than clerics healing hybrid tanks, for the reasons I explained in my earlier post, but I will try again here.

--CH costs a constant amount of mana and takes a constant amount of time to cast, yet can heal up to (If memory serves) 7500 hps....Which means that in the scope of this server it will always truly be a complete heal...As far as I recall, Warriors didn't start topping that until Luclin or PoP at earliest. A warrior with the same build and same gear as a hybrid will have more HPs than that hybrid making the healing the warrior a more efficient target for the cleric to heal.

--Warriors convert AC on gear to worn AC more effectively than hybrids, so the same warrior in the same gear as a hybrid of the same build will have more AC than that hybrid, mitigating more damage, which is more efficient for the cleric also because for the same mob, CH has to be cast less often. And to top it off, warrior class specific gear has higher AC on it as well and, I think, more +HPs depending on era, widening that gap even further.

--If AA became a factor (which I dont think it will be here, but no one really knows for sure) all of the above would be moreso.

C) As for raiding post classic, while a separate topic altogether, Warriors are the ONLY main tanks for raids, with a few very rare notable exceptions. This is because of the disciplines they get, most notablly Defensive. It's worth mentioning in a group discussion, though, because those same disciplines that make them vital for tanking raid mobs, also makes them the tank of choice for tanking tough nameds in a group. Where your hybrid tank may be fine on the grind leading up to the named pop, once that named pops the warrior will be better able to deal with it and will be less of a drain on the cleric.

A + B + C = Warriors are the tank of choice in Kunark and, by extension, so are the measures required for dealing with how they generate aggro, which largely involves other classes having to work as hard not to pull aggro as they do pulling it.

It's really that simple. Again, aggro control is a GROUP effort. It's not about your DPS. It's about the whole group or getting things done efficiently. No one class or role has any reasonable expectation to throw the kitchen sink always every kill and expect other classes to pick up their slack. And it's not as if Warriors can't take and hold aggro at all, as some like to suggest....It just takes a bit more work on their part and takes a modicum of effort on the part of the group. That's all.

This current era we are in is 1/3 of the scope of this server, era-wise, and content-wise is probably 1/5th or 1/10th of it or less....Kunark and Velious have lots packed into them and they are a LOT harder than classic by a long shot. Just because SKs and Pallys can do it now in Classic without downsides doesn't mean that's where the game will be in 6 months. Might as well get used to it now and learn how to accomodate Warriors rather than telling people not to play them, because they are required later as are the tactics needed to work with them.

But look at the bright side....The same tuning post-classic that brought warriors to the forefront also brought rogues from relative obscurity to the top of the DPS pyramid. You, also, made a wise choice in classes for the long haul, even though right now robed casters, particularly mages, can out-dps you more effectively with one eye closed. I played a rogue main for years after PoP and would most definately be playing one now if I wasn't trying to get my GF up to speed on the game with more effective duos for that purpose. You are playing the most fun melee class in the game, IMO, and have a lot to look forward to for the same reasons warriors do.

[bcaldwe0]

Ok, very interesting conversation. I guess the theme here is that warriors are better if planning for long term. Pallys/sk is better now. that is alot to think about. Shamans also sound interesting hahahaha. I started a dwarf war and stated all 25 points to sta, should I reroll and add dex?

[President]

Originally Posted by bcaldwe0 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Ok, very interesting conversation. I guess the theme here is that warriors are better if planning for long term. Pallys/sk is better now. that is alot to think about. Shamans also sound interesting hahahaha. I started a dwarf war and stated all 25 points to sta, should I reroll and add dex?

One thing that was brought up in another thread is that once you start to get end game gear, the main stats for each class gets easy to max out with gear + buffs. Generally, STA/STR for warriors(Though, I honestly havent paid close enough attention to see how close my STA is maxed with buffs and nearly full indo). Dex is one that doesn't easily get maxed out and can be very useful for holding aggro. So, I am not going to tell you what to do, but take it into consideration.

Also take into consideration that leveling a SK or Pally takes quite a bit longer than a warrior due to the XP penalties.

[Weekapaug]

Originally Posted by bcaldwe0 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Ok, very interesting conversation. I guess the theme here is that warriors are better if planning for long term. Pallys/sk is better now. that is alot to think about. Shamans also sound interesting hahahaha. I started a dwarf war and stated all 25 points to sta, should I reroll and add dex?

When you get your warrior rolled how you want, or pally or sk for that matter if you change your mind, post your char name here or PM me....I may have some old gear for you to help you get started.

[gnomishfirework]

Originally Posted by Weekapaug [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I realize my original post is long, but there's no easy simple way to explain it really....I will try with this....

His point wasn't that warriors not holding aggro is their fault, it is that he can go all out with an SK or Pally, so for grouping situations you can have a more efficient group with an SK or Pally tank.

Still, if someone wants to play a warrior. Play a warrior. Ill let you tank in my groups!

Im gonna twink out a warrior to level maybe myself. I do want a tank (I love tanking). Paladin would fit my play style better now, but I like to tank bosses. Warriors pre-pop were pretty much the only ones able to except uber uber equipped pallys/sks I recall. I can't remember the first SK/Pally to tank AoW, I think it was after Velious, right? Its been a while.

My guild never had a SK or Pally MT. I also tanked over better geared sk/pallys on my warrior in velious /shrug, so maybe it was just "Warriors must tank" mentality? It was kind of just to let me tank =P I was mostly plate cycle/giant farming tank. I didn't get to tank the big baddies often (matter of gear and my main was an enchanter).

[Omnimorph]

Warriors are better tanks, but they aren't preferred by dps classes because dps classes then have to actually think about what they're doing. Gotta gage the mobs hp etc for nuking, can't just autoattack straight away etc.

[pickled_heretic]

Originally Posted by Omnimorph [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Warriors are better tanks, but they aren't preferred by dps classes because dps classes then have to actually think about what they're doing. Gotta gage the mobs hp etc for nuking, can't just autoattack straight away etc.

So they're not better than hybrids? A group that is maxing DPS from the get go is going to kill faster and that's going to mean more efficiency all around.

[Stickyfingers]

I think he is saying Warriors are better tanks because they mitigate damage better? Aggro isn't the only thing tanks have to worry about.