Raid Changes

[Amelinda]

personally i'd like to see players (A) follow rules better and (B) quit lawyering rules and (C) be more graceful losers.

I forget who posted it but recently something was posted about how part of the problem is that you guys tend to keep a record of wrongs and then whenever something happens it's like "Well on july 3, 2011 you kited sev!!!" "OH YEAH? Well on july 4, 2011 YOU KS'D OUR TRAK!!!" "OH YEAH? WELL ON AUGUST 4, 2011 YOU GUYS TRAIND US AT VS!!"

that's not productive and doesn't help :P

in theory a simultaneous full respawn might help this but probably not. chances are IB/VD/TMO would all just go for the same targets at the same time and drive the staff nuts anyway :P

[Autotune]

Originally Posted by Amelinda [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

personally i'd like to see players (A) follow rules better and (B) quit lawyering rules and (C) be more graceful losers.

I forget who posted it but recently something was posted about how part of the problem is that you guys tend to keep a record of wrongs and then whenever something happens it's like "Well on july 3, 2011 you kited sev!!!" "OH YEAH? Well on july 4, 2011 YOU KS'D OUR TRAK!!!" "OH YEAH? WELL ON AUGUST 4, 2011 YOU GUYS TRAIND US AT VS!!"

that's not productive and doesn't help :P

in theory a simultaneous full respawn might help this but probably not. chances are IB/VD/TMO would all just go for the same targets at the same time and drive the staff nuts anyway :P

the chances of getting 150 people split between 3 guilds to all follow the rules, not try to bend the rules and play nice every 12~ hrs when they all go for 1 target = ???

The thing is, when there are multiple targets up, no guild wants to spend the time dealing with GMs to sort over a fte or god knows what else. WE always avoid the other guild like a plague on full repops. With Good reason imo.

The only thing the current setup with variance does, is keep the GMs involved on almost a regular basis, except when the GMs get tired of dealing with it. That is when people start lawyering rules more and start abusing the rules when they see nothing is being done.

[Skope]

Originally Posted by Amelinda [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

personally i'd like to see players (A) follow rules better and (B) quit lawyering rules and (C) be more graceful losers.

I forget who posted it but recently something was posted about how part of the problem is that you guys tend to keep a record of wrongs and then whenever something happens it's like "Well on july 3, 2011 you kited sev!!!" "OH YEAH? Well on july 4, 2011 YOU KS'D OUR TRAK!!!" "OH YEAH? WELL ON AUGUST 4, 2011 YOU GUYS TRAIND US AT VS!!"

that's not productive and doesn't help :P

in theory a simultaneous full respawn might help this but probably not. chances are IB/VD/TMO would all just go for the same targets at the same time and drive the staff nuts anyway :P

The only way you'll ever get complete compliance is through an enforced rotation. Many people don't want this, including the GMs, so you get the above scenario. Frankly, he really fucked it up by not getting rid of a lot of the troublemakers and instead giving them a timeout, i'd wager a lot of the assholes you've had to deal with are the same assholes who should've been gone a long time ago. Either take your hands off completely or be more strict when you do decide to come down with the hammer, this in between bullshit only furthers the issue.

Change it or live with it, Amelinda. Asking them to be level-headed is out of the question. What's never happened on this server is guilds being punished (and i do mean entire guilds) for the action of greedy members who don't mind giving the staff more work. There is no incentive to have them work together outside of VP (FFA), hence you've got your issues. I tried telling this to Uthgaard, who apparently got the idea but Rogean shot it down right quick: If you see people being assholes and one side not coming to an agreement because they're being unreasonable then kick them out and ban them from raiding for a couple weeks, or both sides not willing to settle it amongst themselves and be reasonable then delete the loot and ban em both. Like I said, either put your fist down or step back and actually not give a shit, pussy-footing around only furthers the dilemma

[Splorf22]

Originally Posted by Amelinda [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

personally i'd like to see players (A) follow rules better and (B) quit lawyering rules and (C) be more graceful losers.

I forget who posted it but recently something was posted about how part of the problem is that you guys tend to keep a record of wrongs and then whenever something happens it's like "Well on july 3, 2011 you kited sev!!!" "OH YEAH? Well on july 4, 2011 YOU KS'D OUR TRAK!!!" "OH YEAH? WELL ON AUGUST 4, 2011 YOU GUYS TRAIND US AT VS!!"

that's not productive and doesn't help :P

in theory a simultaneous full respawn might help this but probably not. chances are IB/VD/TMO would all just go for the same targets at the same time and drive the staff nuts anyway :P

And I'd like to see candy fall from the sky on Tuesdays. Look I don't think people are good or bad. There are systems that encourage people to compete in good and bad ways. All I can say is I don't remember any drama at all on the last patch day. There isn't time for it cause you have to move on to the next mob [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Look I'm not saying this would be a perfect conflict free system. But you're nuts if you don't think things would get better.

If this were implemented, my guess is the first thing IB/TMO would agree to is leaving the VP dragons for last and splitting them. At that point there are still 4 major epic targets up, plus several dragons for scales. If TMO is in Fear trying for Cazic/Draco/Shissir, do you really think IB is going to get caught in that deathtouch cycle nonsense if Innoruuk is also up in Hate?

Worst case, GMs only have to deal with these petitions once per week en masse rather than every other day.

If you don't think this system is a win for everyone involved (including hopefully some new players) then you're nuts.

[Lazortag]

Originally Posted by Amelinda [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

personally i'd like to see players (A) follow rules better and (B) quit lawyering rules and (C) be more graceful losers.
...
in theory a simultaneous full respawn might help this but probably not. chances are IB/VD/TMO would all just go for the same targets at the same time and drive the staff nuts anyway :P

This isn't a very elegant solution because it's not something you can change. You can't make a rule against rules lawyering or being a sore loser, or wave a magic wand that makes people stop being dickheads. What you can change is the system which exacerbates all of these conflicts in the first place. I already showed in my first post in this thread how FTE disputes don't happen as often when the spawns are less spread out (I think this is just empirically true - whenever there's full server repops (which is almost never for some reason I can't fathom), there seems to be less drama over kiting/who got FTE/etc.).

I really think the best thing to do is just significantly reduce the variance. People from Europe can get raid mobs just as easily with a 12 or 24 hour window than with a 96 hour window. Making all raid mobs pop at once would be fun and all, but it would be kind of silly that anyone could just track VS for example and therefore know automatically that every other mob has popped. You should have to track the specific mob that you're going after (except in cases of server repops where it's expected that every mob is up. These were classic and they used to happen, how come we never have them anymore?)

[Splorf22]

Originally Posted by Lazortag [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This isn't a very elegant solution because it's not something you can change. You can't make a rule against rules lawyering or being a sore loser, or wave a magic wand that makes people stop being dickheads. What you can change is the system which exacerbates all of these conflicts in the first place. I already showed in my first post in this thread how FTE disputes don't happen as often when the spawns are less spread out (I think this is just empirically true - whenever there's full server repops (which is almost never for some reason I can't fathom), there seems to be less drama over kiting/who got FTE/etc.).

I really think the best thing to do is just significantly reduce the variance. People from Europe can get raid mobs just as easily with a 12 or 24 hour window than with a 96 hour window. Making all raid mobs pop at once would be fun and all, but it would be kind of silly that anyone could just track VS for example and therefore know automatically that every other mob has popped. You should have to track the specific mob that you're going after (except in cases of server repops where it's expected that every mob is up. These were classic and they used to happen, how come we never have them anymore?)

Giegue you are missing the whole point of this thread. If you reduce the variance, you'll make poopsocking worse, not better. If Venril only spawns in a 12 hour window, you can bet your ass IB/TMO and probably some VD as well will be sitting in his room for those 12 hours. With no variance at all, the entire server would be sitting there with 200+ people in KC. Spawning the mobs together has a totally different and far superior set of effects.

[Szeth]

If we did a simultaneous re-pop would it be to simulate the patches from live? That is to say, would we still have mobs spawning at (variance or not) times depending on when they were killed? If so then there will be more dragon/god loot coming into the game.

I don't think that is a great idea for a server with slow expac release.

[Autotune]

Originally Posted by Szeth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If we did a simultaneous re-pop would it be to simulate the patches from live? That is to say, would we still have mobs spawning at (variance or not) times depending on when they were killed? If so then there will be more dragon/god loot coming into the game.

I don't think that is a great idea for a server with slow expac release.

It wasn't so much patches as it was regular maintenance. Having more loot will not cause a problem imo, especially if it ends up on the casual guilds. More people getting more targets = more loot distributed across more people. It wouldn't be more loot coming in the game per week than a live server at the same time line. Now it's usually less per week and it has been for quite awhile.

The only difference will be that this server has a low population, if the raiding scene wasn't so "fubar'd" the population would probably not be so dreadfully low. Seriously, who wants to spend hundreds of hours to get to endgame and do what the raiders on p99 do? 1 of 20? 1 of 50? 1 of 100+? Not very many.

[Splorf22]

Originally Posted by Szeth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If we did a simultaneous re-pop would it be to simulate the patches from live? That is to say, would we still have mobs spawning at (variance or not) times depending on when they were killed? If so then there will be more dragon/god loot coming into the game.

I don't think that is a great idea for a server with slow expac release.

I'm not a fan of more loot. The stuff is supposed to be rare and, for lack of a better term, "leet". I would say eliminate the normal repops entirely and just have 1 "major" patch day with literally every timed mob respawning [dragons, maestro types, epic mobs] and 1 "minor" patch day [everything except 7 day spawns] per week. It's exactly the same stuff we had before, just all the raiding is concentrated into two 4-8 hour periods.

[Szeth]

I can't see even 50% of the population agreeing on a good time to pop all the mobs, let alone a good day/week.

Lot's of people have jobs, and as much as I love posting here on the forums FROM my job... I don't think they'd take kindly to me racing for mobs for 3-4 hours halfway through my work day.