sk starting points

[bcbrown]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There is nothing special about EQ's code and equations that make it impossible to apply statistics to things like starting stats.

What's your cost function?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What's your cost function?

I have mentioned it many times.

If we agree that starting stats will not affect your character in a meaningful way, then the benefits of each individual stat are deemed to be outside the scope of our consideration for this conversation. It doesn't really matter if you get +1 DPS, +100 HP, or +200 MP.

Therefore, the only real consideration left is the statistical probability that you will cap the stat. This is because a capped stat provides zero value.

If you take a look at the distribution of which stats appear on useful SK equipment, you will see STA and STR appear with higher frequency. INT appears less often. In addition to this, the amount of STR that can be applied to a character via buffs is also much greater than INT.

Therefore, INT is the statistically best choice.

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm aware you have some sort of professional experience in the games industry, and I'm sure you have far more experience than I do with things like adjusting game mechanics to guide the meta towards whatever you're attempting to accomplish.

But this concept you're talking about is well within my bailiwick. I've built epsilon-greedy multi-armed bandits for online commerce. I've worked on systems that attempt to correct for the "banana problem" in collaborative recommendation systems. I've worked through the mathematics of recursive descent, and understand mechanics of and motivation for using something like simulated annealing to avoid local optima. So yes, I'm explicitly arguing from authority here.

The difference between what you're talking about with LoL and what we're talking about with EQ SK attribute starting points is that the cost function is well defined in your LoL example, but there is no well defined cost function here, which is exactly what I mean when I say "best is subjective".

Min-maxing or formal optimization is about using a cost function across some domain of parameters, where you try to choose parameters that minimize the cost function. With LoL, that cost function would be loss percentage, modified by something like an Elo rating system to account for opponent player strength. The parameters would be something like team champion choices, opponent champion choices, map; not really sure because I've never played LoL.

What's the cost function in EQ? I genuinely can't think of any formal cost functions that could apply. The game content is too easy; that's why we all agree that starting point allocations have minimal impact. There's things like solo artist challenges or low-man raids, but that's only relevant within those subsets of the larger game content.

So when I say that the best is subjective, what I mean is that there's no universally applicable cost function. I mostly enjoy leveling minimally-twinked characters through pickup groups, so my cost function is going to overweight attributes like undergeared DPS, carrying capacity, and so on. You seem to mostly enjoy end-game soloing and maybe raiding, so you're going to underweight those attributes.[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If we don't share a cost function, we won't agree on "best".

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]


I’m glad you said all that. I’m just sad I had such a hard time understanding it. Lots of big words and unfamiliar terminology I had to google.

#headache

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you take a look at the distribution of which stats appear on useful SK equipment, you will see STA and STR appear with higher frequency. INT appears less often. In addition to this, the amount of STR that can be applied to a character via buffs is also much greater than INT.

Therefore, INT is the statistically best choice.

Following that logic, if you look at the distribution of which stats appear on useful SK you will see that wisdom appears even less often than intelligence.

Therefore, WIS is the statistically best choice.

Translation:

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

(I fully expect my sarcasm and straw-man to be lost on him - no I was not being serious)

[Ripqozko]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I have mentioned it many times.

If we agree that starting stats will not affect your character in a meaningful way, then the benefits of each individual stat are deemed to be outside the scope of our consideration for this conversation. It doesn't really matter if you get +1 DPS, +100 HP, or +200 MP.

Therefore, the only real consideration left is the statistical probability that you will cap the stat. This is because a capped stat provides zero value.

If you take a look at the distribution of which stats appear on useful SK equipment, you will see STA and STR appear with higher frequency. INT appears less often. In addition to this, the amount of STR that can be applied to a character via buffs is also much greater than INT.

Therefore, INT is the statistically best choice.

I know statistically speaking your int sk will always be worse than mine. Hope that helps.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Following that logic, if you look at the distribution of which stats appear on useful SK you will see that wisdom appears even less often than intelligence.

Therefore, WIS is the statistically best choice.

This simply shows your lack of understanding of the game mechanics. WIS provides no value to an SK to begin with. You get zero value with 80 WIS, and zero value with 100 WIS. This is not true of INT, STA, or STR on an SK.

You really need to try harder with your trolling attempts. This is why I call you an unfunny troll. There is no link between INT and WIS on an SK. You cannot even troll correctly.

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This simply shows your lack of understanding of the game mechanics. WIS provides no value to an SK to begin with. You get zero value with 80 WIS, and zero value with 100 WIS. This is not true of INT, STA, or STR on an SK.

No shit Sherlock.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No shit Sherlock.

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Following that logic, if you look at the distribution of which stats appear on useful SK you will see that wisdom appears even less often than intelligence.

Therefore, WIS is the statistically best choice.

Can you explain why you thought this troll would be funny, or make sense? It just makes you look bad. I understand that wasn't your intent, but this happens often with your trolling attempts.

[Troxx]

Yeah no, you are not the subject matter expert as what constitutes looking bad. If you need me to explain … it was a jab at the line of reasoning that simply because a stat is less prevalent on gear it means it is the most right choice. It’s not about which stat is the hardest to cap; it’s about which stat is going to actually do for you over the course of your character’s life. That’s the part of this (the discussion part) that you never got around to having. You’re stuck in your head very narrowly focusing on BiS arguments.

Ok so are we allowed to let this thread die now? You think I’m wrong. Everyone else thinks you are wrong. You think you’re somehow winning. Everyone else thinks your captaining the fail boat.

We are at an impasse.

Time to move along

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yeah no, you are not the subject matter expert as what constitutes looking bad.

Ok so are we allowed to let this thread die now? You think I’m wrong. Everyone else thinks you are wrong. You think you’re somehow winning. Everyone else thinks your captaining the fail boat.

We are at an impasse.

Time to move along

We can let it die.

You simply need to stop proclaiming you are victorious due to an argumentum ad populum fallacy. Nothing you said in this post correct, other than you have a strong desire to reach an individual impasse with me. You are not speaking for anybody else in this thread.

I am currently winning the debate, as I have evidence to back up my claims, evidence you have yet to rebut.

Here is my evidence: https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=300

There is nothing wrong with admitting defeat, coming back with better evidence later, or letting the thread die with the possibility of people thinking you may have been wrong.