Lord Nagafen & Lady Vox status (post 52 restriction)

[aerokella]

Moar qq please. Gogo karsten, keep pissin off skope!

[Gwence]

Glitch! I havent seen prospect in a while =(

[h0tr0d (shaere)]

I think as far as 'moral' goes here we all agree leapfrogging is a dick move. Racing for CT or entering fear after another guild is not leapfrogging, that is a different situation. Waiting until a guild pulls Rokyl and then rush past them is leapfogging. If they are pulling the first 2 giants and you run by is not if the target is Nagafen. Waiting for them pull first few giants then running up and tagging Tranix is much the same.

Someone has their raid sitting outside Innoruuks room and is pulling some roamers from there and as they do you rush in to gank Inny is leapfrogging. If they are at the zone in or church and you move up, obviously not.

If a raid is forming for Trakanon at the zone in and you log in at the ledge or run down first it is not leapfrogging. If they are pulling from the door before juggs/reets and your raid logs in at the ledge I would not call that leapfrogging, just smarter positioning. Now if they are at the bridge and are pulling the juggs before Trak and as they pull the last one your raid rushes in to gank Trak that is leapfrogging to me.

Now there are areas that may be gray or disputed but some are clear cut. No one wants or thinks TR should sit back and let other people get all the mobs. I do not want this. It is being respectful of other players. If another raid is in sky setting up for a dojorn pull don't hurry port up and pull it as fast as you can. I would say treat it much the same as normal camps. If they engage within a reasonable time let them try. If they don't engage, then you should be able to. I'm not saying give them an hour to engage but waiting for a guild to pull Rokyl then run someone up past them to claim FTE on Nagafen isn't kosher as far as the majority of this server goes. TR wasn't alone in the situation that has developed as far as the rules and interactions between raid guilds go but you have been in position to affect positive changes.

What SHOULD happen is guilds should get together and agree on common practices and agree about how different situations should be handled. IE what constitutes leapfrogging for each raid mob and what gives someone the right to engage. Some of it would be common sense some may be disagreed upon slightly as you say with a difference of opinion. The agreement should allow for fair competition with respect and courtesy between guilds. It should allow the guilds who are better at mobilizing to maintain the rewards for their skill or effort but at the same time allow other guilds a fair chance at mobs they legitimately mobilized first for. You can work the language all you want but if the guilds come up with an agreement we won't need a GM ruling and a new rule every time a raid mob dies and can avoid countless posts and flames like this post.

[Harrison]

Originally Posted by h0tr0d (shaere) [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think as far as 'moral' goes here we all agree leapfrogging is a dick move. Racing for CT or entering fear after another guild is not leapfrogging, that is a different situation. Waiting until a guild pulls Rokyl and then rush past them is leapfogging. If they are pulling the first 2 giants and you run by is not if the target is Nagafen. Waiting for them pull first few giants then running up and tagging Tranix is much the same.

Someone has their raid sitting outside Innoruuks room and is pulling some roamers from there and as they do you rush in to gank Inny is leapfrogging. If they are at the zone in or church and you move up, obviously not.

If a raid is forming for Trakanon at the zone in and you log in at the ledge or run down first it is not leapfrogging. If they are pulling from the door before juggs/reets and your raid logs in at the ledge I would not call that leapfrogging, just smarter positioning. Now if they are at the bridge and are pulling the juggs before Trak and as they pull the last one your raid rushes in to gank Trak that is leapfrogging to me.

Now there are areas that may be gray or disputed but some are clear cut. No one wants or thinks TR should sit back and let other people get all the mobs. I do not want this. It is being respectful of other players. If another raid is in sky setting up for a dojorn pull don't hurry port up and pull it as fast as you can. I would say treat it much the same as normal camps. If they engage within a reasonable time let them try. If they don't engage, then you should be able to. I'm not saying give them an hour to engage but waiting for a guild to pull Rokyl then run someone up past them to claim FTE on Nagafen isn't kosher as far as the majority of this server goes. TR wasn't alone in the situation that has developed as far as the rules and interactions between raid guilds go but you have been in position to affect positive changes.

What SHOULD happen is guilds should get together and agree on common practices and agree about how different situations should be handled. IE what constitutes leapfrogging for each raid mob and what gives someone the right to engage. Some of it would be common sense some may be disagreed upon slightly as you say with a difference of opinion. The agreement should allow for fair competition with respect and courtesy between guilds. It should allow the guilds who are better at mobilizing to maintain the rewards for their skill or effort but at the same time allow other guilds a fair chance at mobs they legitimately mobilized first for. You can work the language all you want but if the guilds come up with an agreement we won't need a GM ruling and a new rule every time a raid mob dies and can avoid countless posts and flames like this post.

We tried this. There is always one guild who won't participate just to fuck over the rest.

It was Fishbait the first time.

Guess where they are now? TMO.

[Fists]

Originally Posted by Nedala [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We are not a zergguild at all, we kill every mob on this server with fewer members than you could. Tell me when did we raid with 50-60 people last time?

Seriously dude, just stfu, you have no fucking clue what you are talking about. Get your facts straight next time.

This is rich. You had 55-65 people online for EVERY mob on the rolling repop the other day. Nedala is a dumbass, and I pity TR for having to put up with such a blatant deceitful sack of shit. You come on and post fallacies that are completely and utterly so dumb. Yeyeye.

[Harrison]

Numbers are only relevant if they NEED them to succeed. TR does not.

You don't turn away members from your raids because some lesser zerg guild (TMO/DA/Fishbait) will pull the hypocrisy card and call you unfounded names if you raid with more than necessary.

[h0tr0d (shaere)]

I also think recruiting members from other guilds is a dick move. Actively trying to steal members as opposed to building up your own. If they want to join another guild that is different from being pestered every day when they log in trying to steal them away.

As far as trying that before Harrison TMO is on the same page as the rest of us. ATM it is TR who is the one not on the same page. And numbers are always relevant you can't do Eye of Veeshan with 6, no matter how skilled you think you are. TR had 45 or so compared to our 32 in sky yesterday as they did Bees up. It doesn't mean they're less skilled, just some mobs need more people.

[Nedala]

I count 45 on our dkp list, and also this was a server respawn at a good time, of course we have more than an average amount of people logging on then, try harder pls [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[h0tr0d (shaere)]

Try harder how? I wasn't flaming TR, I was saying 45 isn't a zerg and just because you have more people it doesn't mean you're zerg or unskilled.

[Skope]

I don't think we're being uncivil or unfair. If you take me as LOLUMAD?, i'm not. I'm always belligerent, but i'm also pretty damn honest and one of the easiest going people on P99.

Karsten, I'll give you the fact that the rules don't help. Their a mess right now and they've got as many gaping flaws now as they did a year ago, but nobody would even discuss them (not to toot my own horn, but i did and i told you so, TOOTOOT) until you guys saw that socking wasn't ever eliminated, just pushed back until you actually saw some competition again and that's why it started. It really isn't any different than the sockfest last year considering how large the windows are and the priority of the target. Clearly the shit's broken and it exacerbates an already shitty and cutthroat raid scene. But that isn't what I'm arguing...

You can only truly discuss that type of shit if you take yourself out of the picture and see how it impacts everyone as a whole, and considering how xzerion went quiet after you guys got another trak (and the TR dumbasses quit whining about poopsocking now that they have their BPs again), I'm inclined to think you guys again don't give 2 shits. Maybe i'm wrong and maybe you do, but if you're not even willing to admit you guys pulled some REALLY douchey moves the past ~2 months or so then what hope is there for having an open discussion about anything else? I explained this shit to Loke before he went all LOLYOUHAVE30MOREPOSTSTHANIDOYOUSTUPIDNOOBLOL on me.