most underpowered class in game?

[Jimjam]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am not sure why you are saying that. This is how DPS actually works. You could have raid geared rogues in your party, but if you keep pulling too many mobs and those rogues keep dying, then their amazing DPS is irrelevant.

You can't just look at DPS and say 2x DPS = 2x kill speed. That is factually incorrect unless you have perfect control of the situation. I am not saying it is always difficult to control a lot of situations, but this is why utility often plays a huge role in a group, not just DPS. You can have low DPS and good kill speed if you have good players and know the dungeon well.

Rogues are really tough if they haven’t neglected their defence skill / worn ac. They won’t get aggro on a bunch of mobs unless they want to. They can survive a fair while being hit by a mob or two if they’ve chosen to off tank while things get rooted. Raid geared even more so.

Killing stuff quickly is the best cc anyway.

[Zuranthium]

There is virtually no real situation where a solid group can only pull 1 mob per 2 minutes, instead of every minute, when they have 2x as much DPS as a group who can pull every minute. Yet another fallacy from you.

You don't need a "good puller" most of the time. You just fucking pull shit, root the extras, and kill them 1 at a time. Anyone with a brain these days that has Root should be capable of doing this function.

Someone being a "bad puller" or "bad healer" in terms of what the player is doing is irrelevant to the discussion about class power level. You assess a class under the condition of what any solid player should be capable of doing, not what some braindead moron is doing. And if your group has half as much DPS, then you are simply going to be in a far worse position anyway if you have a bad CC'er or some healer who is asleep and incapable of pressing their heal button. More DPS means faster kills, which means you take less damage.

A magician is essentially an off-tank in a group situation like that anyway, because the pet can take one of the adds. Their ability to do compacted DPS with spells also becomes a benefit for a situation like that, being able to take down the first target quicker and thus reduce the amount of damage that would be taken from a pull where adds aren't being rooted properly.

The amount of DPS dictates how frequently you can pull more than anything else. Obviously you need heals as well in situations were you aren't using a kiting method, but the healer slot in a party is the same regardless in this comparison. Having half as much DPS doesn't suddenly make your healing situation better. It just means you are capable of far less and, again, are going to be taking more damage since you kill the pulls slower.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There is virtually no real situation where a solid group can only pull 1 mob per 2 minutes, instead of every minute, when they have 2x as much DPS as a group who can pull every minute. Yet another fallacy from you.

You don't need a "good puller" most of the time. You just fucking pull shit, root the extras, and kill them 1 at a time. Anyone with a brain these days that has Root should be capable of doing this function.

Someone being a "bad puller" or "bad healer" in terms of what the player is doing is irrelevant to the discussion about class power level. You assess a class under the condition of what any solid player should be capable of doing, not what some braindead moron is doing. And if your group has half as much DPS, then you are simply going to be in a far worse position anyway if you have a bad CC'er or some healer who is asleep and incapable of pressing their heal button. More DPS means faster kills, which means you take less damage.

A magician is essentially an off-tank in a group situation like that anyway, because the pet can take one of the adds. Their ability to do compacted DPS with spells also becomes a benefit for a situation like that, being able to take down the first target quicker and thus reduce the amount of damage that would be taken from a pull where adds aren't being rooted properly.

The amount of DPS dictates how frequently you can pull more than anything else. Obviously you need heals as well in situations were you aren't using a kiting method, but the healer slot in a party is the same regardless in this comparison. Having half as much DPS doesn't suddenly make your healing situation better. It just means you are capable of far less and, again, are going to be taking more damage since you kill the pulls slower.

An example is not a fallacy. I never claimed it was a realistic example. It's a simple example. Please learn what fallacies are.

Again, your assumption of perfect conditions is just silly, and it blinds you to understanding that a high DPS group can kill less than a lower DPS group.

Mages probably are the most underpowered class on P99, I am sorry. Their extra DPS doesn't make up for that, even assuming perfect conditons.

[Zuranthium]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

An example is not a fallacy. I never claimed it was a realistic example.

You literally said "it's rarely the case in real life application that DPS matters." So indeed you are claiming that your idiotic example is something like the norm. When it isn't. That is a fallacy.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Again, your assumption of perfect conditions is just silly, and it blinds you to understanding that a high DPS group can kill less than a lower DPS group.

Nobody assumed "perfect conditions". Nowhere close to perfect conditions is needed to do exp/faction/item grinding in a way that utilizes most/all of the DPS in a team.

The majority of places in the game where people want to grind, the MOBs are just sitting there like a fucking buffet. It is incredibly easy to control them with Root alone, and the decider on how much you will kill simply comes down to a basic mathematical question of how much damage you are capable of doing and if your group has a sufficient amount of defense to sustain the pace. Being able to potentially kill X amount of MOBs in a given timeframe will result in them doing Y amount of damage, does the team have the heals/slows/regen to match?

And if you aren't in a situation where there are essentially unlimited things to pull, then you still want as much DPS as possible. Higher DPS = faster kills = faster respawn = more progression.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Mages are the most underpowered class on P99, I am sorry.

Two things are apparent from what you write:

1.) You've never been a high ranked player in any competitive game.

2.) Your understanding of EQ is lagging far behind and/or a Mage killed your family.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You literally said "it's rarely the case in real life application that DPS matters." So indeed you are claiming that your idiotic example is something like the norm. When it isn't. That is a fallacy.



Nobody assumed "perfect conditions". Nowhere close to perfect conditions is needed to do exp/faction/item grinding in a way that utilizes most/all of the DPS in a team.

The majority of places in the game where people want to grind, the MOBs are just sitting there like a fucking buffet. It is incredibly easy to control them with Root alone, and the decider on how much you will kill simply comes down to a basic mathematical question of how much damage you are capable of doing and if your group has a sufficient amount of defense to sustain the pace. Being able to potentially kill X amount of MOBs in a given timeframe will result in them doing Y amount of damage, does the team have the heals/slows/regen to match?

And if you aren't in a situation where there are essentially unlimited things to pull, then you still want as much DPS as possible. Higher DPS = faster kills = faster respawn = more progression.



Two things are apparent from what you write:

1.) You've never been a high ranked player in any competitive game.

2.) Your understanding of EQ is lagging far behind and/or a Mage killed your family.

No. I love mages. Underpowered does not mean bad, or you shouldn't play them. You are simply overvaluing them because of your misconceptions of DPS, and I assume you play one yourself. You are letting your emotions get the better of you.

What you fail to realize is most mobs have such low HP to begin with you don't need amazing DPS to clear content quickly. Average geared players can do it just fine, and at a fast rate. Just because you have a high expectation of xp per hour doesn't mean your xp rate is normal, or what everybody is aiming for. That has been my point, and anybody who plays this game would know that.

[Zuranthium]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What you fail to realize is most mobs have such low HP to begin with you don't need amazing DPS to clear content quickly.

An incorrect statement, especially with Velious content. But also going back to your statement about Mino axes being enough DPS at the mid levels. Trying doing Splitpaw with just melee geared with Mino axe's. It will be very slow, and boring.

Your entire line of thinking is a fallacy anyway though. It doesn't matter if you personally consider a certain slower xp rate to be "fast". That is not the objective most powerful way to play the game. If you are discussing the power level of classes, then you must look at what they bring to the game when people try to maximize their ability. Which doesn't mean only looking at their ability in a perfect scenario, like a Druid when charming, but rather the approximate average of what they contribute in a variety of scenarios (which for EQ can include various group compositions), when playing the game near-optimally in those scenarios.

The way you try to talk, it's like arguing that some Tier 3 deck in a Magic the Gathering meta is perfectly competitive because of the winrate you're getting with it at whatever mid-rank you happen to be. That doesn't mean the deck is actually one of the most powerful. The most powerful decks are defined by winrate in high ranked play.

Which is exactly why ad populum arguments are often terrible. In order for opinions to be equally valid on a subject, the must have roughly equal levels of expertise. Most people never become a Chess Grandmaster. The 95% of people who play an inferior line in chess are not correct just because they hold a 95% majority. They are simply not at the same level.

[Fammaden]

Pulling is the biggest potential bottleneck for most full six man PUG's. There's a lot of shit monks out there who have no concept of pacing, timing, or their group's limitations and strengths, who think training as much shit as possible and flopping it is all there is to pulling well. There's also lots of people pulling of any class who just don't know the zone/camp/spawns all that well and fail to secure a steady stream of mobs without overwhelming or underfeeding their group.

A knowledgeable puller can turn a mediocre PUG into the best group any of them have had in days, and then it turns right into a slog again when he leaves for someone less experienced or conscientious.

[DJTucker]

Discussion on the most OP or the most under OP class has always been under discussion. Everquest was not designed for individuals to solo play. Each class brings their own skill set to a group, which makes groups the OP entity of the game.
Thankyou Project 99 for keeping the game as close to original as possible.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The problem is you think I am using an ad populum argument. The reality is I am talking about game balance. Everquest monster HP isn't balanced around players having high teir gear. Its balanced around low to mid tier gear. This is why you don't need highly geared (high DPS) players to clear content quickly.

I have no idea why you think Everquest is comparable to Chess lol. You have a strange idea that you need to powergame a 20 year old elf sim basically balanced to easy mode. Remember that the game balance was designed around expansions coming out quickly, so they can't expect players to be decked out with raid gear when a new expansion releases.

[Zuranthium]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Everquest monster HP isn't balanced around players having high teir gear. Its balanced around low to mid tier gear. This is why you don't need highly geared (high DPS) players to clear content quickly.

You absolutely do need high DPS to clear content "quickly". Do you want to spend 6 hours trying to fight through Plane of Fear, or 3? Is that extra 3 hours of your life not valuable? How about getting to Level 60, want to spend 800 hours or 400? 400 hours of life not worthwhile either?

Everything is measured in time. The faster you can do things in EQ, the more powerful you are. Ultimately the entire game and metric of what is "powerful" simply comes down to how efficiently something can be done. The game can be "beaten" no matter what, if you simply spend enough time and throw enough characters at something. A raid of 500 people doesn't need Clerics to "clear" the content. You can just hack down the Dragon eventually while taking tons of deaths. But obviously it's much more efficient to use Clerics, hence why they are powerful.

Imagine if raids were capped at 30 people. What is most powerful would inherently be whittled down first to what 30-character composition is even capable of killing the boss MOB, and then what group composition can kill it the quickest and/or kill it with less than 30 people. The less people you need to do something, the less the loot needs to be shared. And the faster you can do something, the more time you have to move onto the next thing.

In EQ, those factors of how to do something most efficiently (least amount of characters needed and/or fastest) revolves around whatever allows you to do the most DPS while not dying, or at least not dying too much. Unless you are exploiting the duel or drowning mechanics from certain periods of EQ, wherein you could constantly refill your mana bar by dying. In which case, die frequently, it's quicker than medding. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]