Best 4 person all caster/priest group

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It’s funny and also embarrassing to watch you cherry pick quotes to try to win an argument.

“I sustained dps”. “Solo dps = group dps, I debunked you fools! Muahah.”

You’ve just shown us that shamans are shit tier group dps, which we already know. And people would rather take cleric heals. It’s safer than torpor, and you also get rez, aego, and aoe stun. Better overall utility. So shaman loses to a cleric in heals. And shaman loses to a mage in dps by a large margin. This is a 4 man group, so we don’t have to settle for shaman inferiority. We can pick the best of the best.

It’s really that simple, I’m not sure why you think shamans have to fit into every group composition just because they’re good soloers.

A lot of random accusations with no merit. Still no evidence of any kind to back up your claims.

People can see the hundreds of pages of trolling wasn't worth it, considering it was trivial to show that you can use solo videos to mimic group situations when determining class DPS. The trolling is what was embarrassing here.

The only people trying to force a class into every composition are the people claiming you cannot be efficient unless you pick a Cleric. They are doing this without evidence, and have yet to provide any. I am not claiming Cleric is a bad pick here, nor am I forcing people to pick Shaman. This group is not doing content that requires a Warrior discing, it doesn't have a Warrior.

[Vexenu]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I clearly showed in my video that the Shaman can do all of the tanking for the pets, so you don't need CH to keep the pets up. This means in this group the Shaman is providing at least 30 DPS over a Cleric. DPS will be a bit higher with buffing the Charmed pets with Avatar, and having the pets attack from behind for the entire fight. I just haven't parsed that yet to know the exact amount.

If you want to talk about a Shaman Torpor tanking, slowing, healing and pulling like you did in that video, that's a different conversation than a Shaman DPSing. Obviously a Shaman can do those things well. But a Shaman cannot do those things and also DPS at the same time. Casting one nuke per mob is NOT sustained DPS by any reasonable definition. It's the exact reason why nobody invites Wizards to their leveling groups: because even at low levels, casting one nuke per mob is very poor DPS, and this already woeful DPS gets even worse as you level and mob HP increases. The absolute best DPS you can maintain as a Shaman will be from JBB spam + pet, which is around 47 sustained DPS. And the moment you start casting other spells like canni, Torpor, slow, etc... that DPS goes straight into the toilet, because the 32 DPS of the JBB spam is doing the bulk of the work.

A theoretical Enc/Enc/Enc/Shm group with the Shaman tanking could work fine at 60, but would be MUCH weaker from 1-59 and until the Shaman is raid geared and has Torpor. Conversely, a group with a Cleric has access to CH from level 39 on, and the Cleric requires basically no gear to be effective.

The Necro/Ench you trioed with in your video would have done just as well with a skilled 60 Cleric supporting them. Plenty of healing, stuns on charm breaks, can even toss in some undead nukes. They also would have done basically as well with a 55 Cleric supporting them. But if your Shaman was level 55, guess what? It would have been SHIT, because you rely entirely on Torpor for your strategy to be even marginally effective.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Vexenu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

A theoretical Enc/Enc/Enc/Shm group with the Shaman tanking could work fine at 60.

You seem to be agreeing with me then. I have always been talking about the four man group at level 60. I don't see the benefit of min/maxing the group from 1-59 since it is easy to level to 60 with a four man group, unless you do something odd like four Rogues. You want to build your group around what you want to do at level 60. If you are the type of player that never gets to 60, this thread isn't as relevant. You can level quickly with 4 Mages, and stop in your 50s or where-ever you typically end up stopping if you just want to play with friends and not worry about end game content.

Originally Posted by Vexenu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

but would be MUCH weaker from 1-59 and until the Shaman is raid geared and has Torpor. Conversely, a group with a Cleric has access to CH from level 39 on, and the Cleric requires basically no gear to be effective.

I disagree here. The Shaman only needs Torpor, they don't need raid gear to Torpor Tank. Enchanter spells are expensive as well, so the group is planning on buying quite a few expensive spells anyway.

Also, people don't really think about the math of CH at lower levels. Here is a post I made in a different thread:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Let me put it another way. Looking at my parses, my 51 Monk took 1200 damage from fighting a level 42 guard. My Monk has 1800 HP, so that would have been CH'ed. That means CH is a 3 to 1 mana ratio in this scenario.

With https://wiki.project1999.com/Tagar%27s_Insects , a 51 Shaman is slowing for around 45% at 125 mana. That reduces the 1200 damage to 660 damage. If you spend 250 mana on Superior Healing, that reduces the total damage taken to 136. At level 52 with Regrowth, that 136 is reduced to zero if the fight lasted a minute.

For 395 mana (including 20 mana a minute for Regrowth) the Shaman mitigated the same damage as the CH. CH costs 400 mana.

Realistically a Cleric isn't even doing that much better than a Shaman until the group is in it's 50s in terms of healing. CH efficiency is dependent on max HP, which a lower level player or lower level charmed pet has less of.

[Guesty07]

I'll take mage every time. And I'm a 60 shaman!

[Karanis]

We're back!

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HUH.jpg

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[fortior]

Lol check his magelo

[Gloomlord]

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This is what it's like talking to DSM, Karanis. I concur.

Reason cannot penetrate this creature.

[Vexenu]

I think the general problem is that:

1) You overestimate the abilities of the Shaman class. You do this through a bit of rhetorical slight of hand, whereby you change your arguments in favor of the Shaman based on the various different roles the Shaman can play. On the surface this makes sense, because the Shaman is a generalist class with a decent amount of utility. But the problem is that the Shaman cannot perform all of these roles at the same time, and in a 4 man group all of the roles the Shaman fills best are already filled by the Enchanter and Cleric, leaving the Shaman either to tank or DPS, neither of which it does better than other available classes (or charm pets).

2) You underestimate the abilities of the Cleric class. Clerics provide more than just rezzing, and a level 49 Pocket Cleric is not the same thing as a well-played and geared level 60 Cleric in group. Beyond CH, which is inarguably superior to Torpor, Clerics also bring substantial HP buffs and stuns, both of which make charming (which, I will remind you, is the bread and butter of a group with two Enchanters) much safer. A Cleric also requires much less APM than a Shaman and thus is much less susceptible to make mistakes due to player fatigue/laziness.

3) You discount the value of group synergy and assume the Shaman's strength as a soloer makes it fit for every group composition. Yes, the Shaman is very good at soloing using certain specific tactics. But solo tactics do not always translate to group tactics, i.e. a Necro can solo well by fear kiting, but fear kiting becomes extremely annoying and impractical if you have melee players in the group. Your love for the Shaman class makes you want to shoehorn it into every conceivable place it might fit, while ignoring the obvious fact that other classes would often perform better in its place.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Vexenu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think the general problem is that:

1) You overestimate the abilities of the Shaman class. You do this through a bit of rhetorical slight of hand, whereby you change your arguments in favor of the Shaman based on the various different roles the Shaman can play. On the surface this makes sense, because the Shaman is a generalist class with a decent amount of utility. But the problem is that the Shaman cannot perform all of these roles at the same time, and in a 4 man group all of the roles the Shaman fills best are already filled by the Enchanter and Cleric, leaving the Shaman either to tank or DPS, neither of which it does better than other available classes (or charm pets).

2) You underestimate the abilities of the Cleric class. Clerics provide more than just rezzing, and a level 49 Pocket Cleric is not the same thing as a well-played and geared level 60 Cleric in group. Beyond CH, which is inarguably superior to Torpor, Clerics also bring substantial HP buffs and stuns, both of which make charming (which, I will remind you, is the bread and butter of a group with two Enchanters) much safer. A Cleric also requires much less APM than a Shaman and thus is much less susceptible to make mistakes due to player fatigue/laziness.

3) You discount the value of group synergy and assume the Shaman's strength as a soloer makes it fit for every group composition. Yes, the Shaman is very good at soloing using certain specific tactics. But solo tactics do not always translate to group tactics, i.e. a Necro can solo well by fear kiting, but fear kiting becomes extremely annoying and impractical if you have melee players in the group. Your love for the Shaman class makes you want to shoehorn it into every conceivable place it might fit, while ignoring the obvious fact that other classes would often perform better in its place.

1) I think the problem is reversed. You underestimate the abilities of the Shaman class. I have multiple videos showing a Shaman's capabilities, while you have no evidence showing the equivalent for a Cleric. You cannot back up anything you are saying, while I can.

2) I am not underestimating Clerics at all. They are a fantastic class. The simple truth is most content that doesn't require a Warrior discing is tankable with Torpor + Slow. Therefore you do not need CH, and pocket clerics are an easy solution for resing. Please do not bring fatigue into this. Enchanters are also a high stress class. You are always paying attention to make sure your pet doesn't break, you are casting a lot of spells, etc. If that was a serious factor here, people wouldn't suggest Enchanter/Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric.

3) I think Shamans synergize very well with groups. That is why I am suggesting it! Again, you are the person claiming Shamans bring little to a group. You need to provide evidence for this claim. You are simply misunderstanding my argument about why the best solo classes are also great group classes. Enchanters are the best solo class because they can manipulate the game better than any other class, both in solo and group situations. Shamans can also manipulate the game very well, because they have a unique method to tank and quickly recover mana. That is why they are very strong in both solo and group situations. Shaman/Enchanter/Monk is a very strong trio for this reason.

[cyxthryth]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

1) I think the problem is reversed. You underestimate the abilities of the Shaman class. I have multiple videos showing a Shaman's capabilities, while you have no evidence showing the equivalent for a Cleric. You cannot back up anything you are saying, while I can.

# of posts about Shamans improving the DPS of their group via Root-Rotting mulitple mobs parallel to the group: tens? hundreds?
# of posts including evidence of such: 0

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

2) I am not underestimating Clerics at all. They are a fantastic class. The simple truth is most content a group that doesn't need a Warrior is doing is tankable with Torpor + Slow. Therefore you do not need CH, and pocket clerics are an easy solution for resing. Please do not bring fatigue into this. Enchanters are also a high stress class. You are always paying attention to make sure your pet doesn't break, you are casting a lot of spells, etc.

Constantly cannibalizing over long periods/gameplay sessions = fatigue

Stress because a Charm might break =/= fatigue from constantly Cannibalizing

Paying attention because a Charm might break =/= fatigue from constantly Cannibalizing

Enc is casting a lot of spells =/= fatigue of equivalently "casting a lot of spells" Shaman who will be constantly Cannibalizing in addition to "casting a lot of spells"

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

3) I think Shamans synergize very well with groups. Again, you are the person claiming they bring nothing to a group. You need to provide evidence for this claim. You are simply misunderstanding my argument about why solo classes are also good group classes. Enchanters are the best solo class because they can manipulate the game better than any other class, both in a solo and group situation. Shamans can also manipulate the game very well, because they have a unique method to tank and quickly recover mana.

Did you forget about the tens? hundreds? of posts you made claiming Shaman can improve group DPS by Root Rotting multiple mobs parallel to the group? None of your "evidence" has included your Shaman doing this. Again, you are the person claiming you can do this. You need to provide evidence for this claim.