most underpowered class in game?

[Zuranthium]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's not a fallacy. It is fact. You can play this game pretty fast without optimizing your group. The only reason why you don't know this is because you have never played the game that way. That doesn't mean it isn't true, it just means you have little experience playing the game.

You basically just don't understand how DPS works in this game, so you overvalue it.

Literally everything you say is wrong. I have more experience playing EQ than you do. You are currently showing yourself to be incapable of reading, incapable of basic math, and incapable of understanding game mechanics, between your hilariously ignorant take on DPS and the speed of leveling, and your asinine assertions about how people play the game.

Again, playing the game as you propose, you'll be sitting around at Level 15 and getting no good items on a new server, while other people are twice your level and holding down the best camps. And that same pattern will constantly repeat itself, since this game as a whole is very much about about farming. Need to grind in Kael to get faction? It's gonna take you 2x as long to get the necessary amount, only playing the game as you state. If you want to waste your own time in life, that's your decision. It has no bearing on the power level of classes.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Literally everything you say is wrong. I have more experience playing EQ than you do. You are currently showing yourself to be incapable of reading, incapable of basic math, and incapable of understanding game mechanics, between your hilariously ignorant take on DPS and the speed of leveling, and your asinine assertions about how people play the game.

Again, playing the game as you propose, you'll be sitting around at Level 15 and getting no good items on a new server, while other people are twice your level and holding down the best camps. And that same pattern will constantly repeat itself, since this game as a whole is very much about about farming. Need to grind in Kael to get faction? It's gonna take you 2x as long to get the necessary amount, only playing the game as you state. If you want to waste your own time in life, that's your decision. It has no bearing on the power level of classes.

You are showng your lack of understanding yet again.

Lets do a simple math exercise. Lets say you have a group that does 2000 damage per minute. They are killing mobs with 1000 HP. If it takes them 2 minutes per pull, they are killing one mob per two minutes.

Another group does 1000 damage per minute, but they can pull every one minute. That group is killing 1 mob per minute. Even though this group has half the DPS, they are getting double the kills per hour.

This is why raw DPS often doesn't matter. You are basically making the assumption that every group is working perfectly, which is rarely the case in real life application.

Some groups have high DPS and bad pullers, some groups have low DPS but good pullers. Some groups have both. You are projecting your fantasy that most people play with perfect groups all the time. Its a silly fantasy.

And obviously things get more complex when you account for how good your CCer is, how good your healer is, how much damage your tank can soak and taunt, etc. All of these factors change how quickly a group can kill content, even if their DPS on paper is high or low.

You have an oversimplified view that more DPS always equates to more kills per hour. That just isn't true.

[Zuranthium]

There is virtually no real situation where a solid group can only pull 1 mob per 2 minutes, instead of every minute, when they have 2x as much DPS as a group who can pull every minute. Yet another fallacy from you.

You don't need a "good puller" most of the time. You just fucking pull shit, root the extras, and kill them 1 at a time. Anyone with a brain these days that has Root should be capable of doing this function.

Someone being a "bad puller" or "bad healer" in terms of what the player is doing is irrelevant to the discussion about class power level. You assess a class under the condition of what any solid player should be capable of doing, not what some braindead moron is doing. And if your group has half as much DPS, then you are simply going to be in a far worse position anyway if you have a bad CC'er or some healer who is asleep and incapable of pressing their heal button. More DPS means faster kills, which means you take less damage.

A magician is essentially an off-tank in a group situation like that anyway, because the pet can take one of the adds. Their ability to do compacted DPS with spells also becomes a benefit for a situation like that, being able to take down the first target quicker and thus reduce the amount of damage that would be taken from a pull where adds aren't being rooted properly.

The amount of DPS dictates how frequently you can pull more than anything else. Obviously you need heals as well in situations were you aren't using a kiting method, but the healer slot in a party is the same regardless in this comparison. Having half as much DPS doesn't suddenly make your healing situation better. It just means you are capable of far less and, again, are going to be taking more damage since you kill the pulls slower.

[Jimjam]

Originally Posted by Zeboim [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Just gonna say that if you tell a melee character they can't join your EXP group because of what weapon they have, you are an ENORMOUS tool.

I remember wearing crystalline silk on my monk, which looks like cloth and getting gear checked by someone (and to be fair it is trash - light weight leather ac with magic resist)…. So I switch to bristle silk (cloth ac but with velious leather appearance that i kept bagged for fashion) and they let me in.

It was quite funny getting gearchecked into worse gear because optics is king.

I also got gearchecked in crushbone on a rogue for using a tarnished spear.

[Toxigen]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You are showng your lack of understanding yet again.

Lets do a simple math exercise. Lets say you have a group that does 2000 damage per minute. They are killing mobs with 1000 HP. If it takes them 2 minutes per pull, they are killing one mob per two minutes.

Another group does 1000 damage per minute, but they can pull every one minute. That group is killing 1 mob per minute. Even though this group has half the DPS, they are getting double the kills per hour.

This is why raw DPS often doesn't matter. You are basically making the assumption that every group is working perfectly, which is rarely the case in real life application.

Some groups have high DPS and bad pullers, some groups have low DPS but good pullers. Some groups have both. You are projecting your fantasy that most people play with perfect groups all the time. Its a silly fantasy.

And obviously things get more complex when you account for how good your CCer is, how good your healer is, how much damage your tank can soak and taunt, etc. All of these factors change how quickly a group can kill content, even if their DPS on paper is high or low.

You have an oversimplified view that more DPS always equates to more kills per hour. That just isn't true.

This is the worst take on eq leveling I've ever read.

Cmon, DSM, I know you like to argue points into oblivion but just step down man. Holy fucking cringe.

[eqravenprince]

DPS isn't the end all be all to everyone. EQ isn't a race to me. Maybe it use to be, but my god man it's 23 years old, I've played hundreds of characters. You get to 60, then you go to a raid now and again if that's your thing. You buff newbies. You go around to different dungeons farm items with a 20+ min spawn timer. Play a rare race/class combo cause it's fun. Play 1-60 untwinked cause you can even though you could twink the crap out of him. The nerd rage on these forums amazes me.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Toxigen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is the worst take on eq leveling I've ever read.

Cmon, DSM, I know you like to argue points into oblivion but just step down man. Holy fucking cringe.

I am not sure why you are saying that. This is how DPS actually works. You could have raid geared rogues in your party, but if you keep pulling too many mobs and those rogues keep dying, then their amazing DPS is irrelevant.

You can't just look at DPS and say 2x DPS = 2x kill speed. That is factually incorrect unless you have perfect control of the situation. I am not saying it is always difficult to control a lot of situations, but this is why utility often plays a huge role in a group, not just DPS. You can have low DPS and good kill speed if you have good players and know the dungeon well.

[Fammaden]

Pulling is the biggest potential bottleneck for most full six man PUG's. There's a lot of shit monks out there who have no concept of pacing, timing, or their group's limitations and strengths, who think training as much shit as possible and flopping it is all there is to pulling well. There's also lots of people pulling of any class who just don't know the zone/camp/spawns all that well and fail to secure a steady stream of mobs without overwhelming or underfeeding their group.

A knowledgeable puller can turn a mediocre PUG into the best group any of them have had in days, and then it turns right into a slog again when he leaves for someone less experienced or conscientious.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There is virtually no real situation where a solid group can only pull 1 mob per 2 minutes, instead of every minute, when they have 2x as much DPS as a group who can pull every minute. Yet another fallacy from you.

You don't need a "good puller" most of the time. You just fucking pull shit, root the extras, and kill them 1 at a time. Anyone with a brain these days that has Root should be capable of doing this function.

Someone being a "bad puller" or "bad healer" in terms of what the player is doing is irrelevant to the discussion about class power level. You assess a class under the condition of what any solid player should be capable of doing, not what some braindead moron is doing. And if your group has half as much DPS, then you are simply going to be in a far worse position anyway if you have a bad CC'er or some healer who is asleep and incapable of pressing their heal button. More DPS means faster kills, which means you take less damage.

A magician is essentially an off-tank in a group situation like that anyway, because the pet can take one of the adds. Their ability to do compacted DPS with spells also becomes a benefit for a situation like that, being able to take down the first target quicker and thus reduce the amount of damage that would be taken from a pull where adds aren't being rooted properly.

The amount of DPS dictates how frequently you can pull more than anything else. Obviously you need heals as well in situations were you aren't using a kiting method, but the healer slot in a party is the same regardless in this comparison. Having half as much DPS doesn't suddenly make your healing situation better. It just means you are capable of far less and, again, are going to be taking more damage since you kill the pulls slower.

An example is not a fallacy. I never claimed it was a realistic example. It's a simple example. Please learn what fallacies are.

Again, your assumption of perfect conditions is just silly, and it blinds you to understanding that a high DPS group can kill less than a lower DPS group.

Mages probably are the most underpowered class on P99, I am sorry. Their extra DPS doesn't make up for that, even assuming perfect conditons.

[Jimjam]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am not sure why you are saying that. This is how DPS actually works. You could have raid geared rogues in your party, but if you keep pulling too many mobs and those rogues keep dying, then their amazing DPS is irrelevant.

You can't just look at DPS and say 2x DPS = 2x kill speed. That is factually incorrect unless you have perfect control of the situation. I am not saying it is always difficult to control a lot of situations, but this is why utility often plays a huge role in a group, not just DPS. You can have low DPS and good kill speed if you have good players and know the dungeon well.

Rogues are really tough if they haven’t neglected their defence skill / worn ac. They won’t get aggro on a bunch of mobs unless they want to. They can survive a fair while being hit by a mob or two if they’ve chosen to off tank while things get rooted. Raid geared even more so.

Killing stuff quickly is the best cc anyway.