Discussion: PvP Deaths (Item/Coin/XP Loot/Gain)

[runlvlzero]

Item and Coin loot, yes
XP loss or gain no thanks, maybe loss, if balanced fairly

[Nirgon]

It's good for a classic experience and making no drop gear more valuable (the shittier planar pieces).

It's bad because it probably scares too many away.

[nilbog]

Originally Posted by Nirgon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's good for a classic experience and making no drop gear more valuable (the shittier planar pieces).

It's bad because it [item loot] probably scares too many away.

I agree. I think item loot gives a reason to do non-popular quests which yield no drop pieces.

I have yet to see someone say they would personally be scared away, but they fear for others being scared away.

Is there anyone that wouldn't play item loot pvp, for fear of losing/gaining a non-primary/non-secondary droppable item?

[Xareth]

Originally Posted by nilbog [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Is there anyone that wouldn't play item loot pvp, for fear of losing/gaining a non-primary/non-secondary droppable item?

I honestly think that pro item looters are the minority, though maybe by just a bit - say 45 / 55 or 40 / 60. Others have pointed out that the sample you are getting from the message boards isn't a good reflection of the population as a whole.

I am 100% for item loot, and will probably play a rogue classic..., but I think what it will do to the population is not worth it. I think we're talking 5-600 instead of 2-300 off the bat. But who knows, it'll probably depend on the ruleset.

And as you said, it'll be a no drop quest fest.


+1 to Lethdar's entire post.

Originally Posted by Envious [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I dont think anyone will admit to not playing with item loot, but its just too hard on the melees. And esp tanks. They need the items to be able to pvp, and the gearing up time is just too rough to risk it.

This is the truth. Casters rule till planar, and most non-casters don't have the cahones to see through a real grind to 46 with item loot.

Originally Posted by Yukahwa [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is an argument that I strongly disagree with. The very first time I played rallos zek, it was a blast. I was brand new, got killed mercilessly dozens of times, but it was a lot of fun. Greater faydark was larger and darker then and around every corner could be a guy just waiting to take me out. I was utterly poor in the game, but it was the most fun I've ever had.

You are the anomaly. Bluebies fucking hate being killed mercilessly once, let alone multiple times. Look at the server list for EQ live...why so many PvE servers bro? Because most people that play EQ are blue to the max.

[JayDee]

Originally Posted by nilbog [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I agree. I think item loot gives a reason to do non-popular quests which yield no drop pieces.

I have yet to see someone say they would personally be scared away, but they fear for others being scared away.

Is there anyone that wouldn't play item loot pvp, for fear of losing/gaining a non-primary/non-secondary droppable item?

you really have your finger on the pulse of the community

do you denote sarcasm

[Knuckle]

Originally Posted by nilbog [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I agree. I think item loot gives a reason to do non-popular quests which yield no drop pieces.

I have yet to see someone say they would personally be scared away, but they fear for others being scared away.

Is there anyone that wouldn't play item loot pvp, for fear of losing/gaining a non-primary/non-secondary droppable item?

I wouldn't mind item loot but it's been proven over the course of many VZTZ boxxes that players demand it be removed/stop playing when it's in for more than a few months. I think item loot will yield far greater griefing than serverwide yellow text ever could.

[Nirgon]

Not everyone is going to post their thoughts here that is going to hear about it and play it. You won't really truly ever know the real answer to that question.

What I do know is most people posting here are going to play it regardless :P. I think when the server shows up on the release screen, if you put up a poll on the main page before you really go ahead and open it.. that would be the best way to settle it by vote.

Over time, people will definitely qq and quit over losing an item :P. How many? I don't know. But how many people will continue playing longer because that is an incentive?

It also trims down the advantage the raiders have (read: droppable dragon haste) have over the average players.

Risking your diamond/blue diamond for an advantage is fun too, having a full suit where no one can ever get a piece off... I never liked that.

[lethdar]

The entire server's population doesn't browse these forums, and on top of that there i doubt many people would want to look lame by posting that.

A lot of the data comes from vztz's population, which went from low, sub 100 with item loot, up to a max of 350ish without item loot, down to a low of sub 100 on 3.0 until item loot was removed at which point it had a rebound upwards again.

While people point out "vztz =/= p99", the crowd they draw from are really probably more or less the same when it comes to what they're willing to tolerate in their eq gameplay. With item loot people who are new to playing or new to eq pvp are severely punished, beyond the point of being willing to play on vztz for a significant portion of them. If anything this problem is likely to be worse on red99 due to the greatly increased time required to farm any item that would be lost when x2 wizards pop in and 1 shot some unsuspecting person.

I played, Guildwars, VZTZ,other emulated servers etc, and I'll be playing either way, however what I would like is a larger server with more people to encounter and fight and everything I've experienced on these various servers indicates that item loot scares and griefs away more players than coin loot.

I don't see why this trend wouldn't continue here.

[Yukahwa]

Originally Posted by lethdar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

With item loot people who are new to playing or new to eq pvp are severely punished...

This is an argument that I strongly disagree with. The very first time I played rallos zek, it was a blast. I was brand new, got killed mercilessly dozens of times, but it was a lot of fun. Greater faydark was larger and darker then and around every corner could be a guy just waiting to take me out. I was utterly poor in the game, but it was the most fun I've ever had.

The goal of course was for me to one day go and kill those players and attain the items that made them so powerful. I fought with them constantly and tried to catch them when they were weak since that was the only time I had a chance. This is all below level 10.

Without item loot, all I am doing is fighting someone who vastly overpowers me who will respawn in a few seconds and come kill me again. There is simply no reason to fight these players, it really makes every level besides the highest level suck.

Yes, with item loot an individual can bag...but for a weakling like I was in those early days, that itself was a victory. I got to shout in the zone about it, and with each valuable item bagged, that strong PK became less powerful and easier to kill.

Really it is non item loot that hurts new players by making the entire new dynamic (PVP) rewardless. Many players will go to a zone to level up..great. Some guy will come to try to kill them..bummer. With item loot there are 2 options.

1. PK is geared poorly because he doesn't want to lose his good gear..Result = PK is easy to kill and force out of the zone.

2. PK is geared well and has good items...Result = me and my grinding group will try to take him out or if there is a group..we will try to take ONE of them out and get something for our pains. We might have to leave but we also might regroup after first being wiped and try to kill 1 of those well geared guys. If they all start bagging then they get easier to kill.

Without item loot there is only 1 option. The PK will be twinked as well as he can afford, he will be hard to kill solo or in a team, and he will overpower you unless you are also a twink grinding up an alt.

Please dont tell me that casters don't need gear. The only players that can't kill a naked caster easily (SOLO) are rogues, monks, and warriors. Everyone else can either root or snare or blind the naked caster and kill them in under a minute when wielding a minotaur battle axe or better. Whoever attacks first in this case is likely to be the winner.

Yes. A solo warrior will lose to a solo mage. Warrior's are not a solo class and these low levels are going to be tough. That is an irrefutable fact regardless of item loot on/off. Even maxed out in old world your resists are going to be very poor, so PLEASE don't say that a melee needs item loot off. Melees have their own advantages and any melee trying to level up should be in a group anyways. A melee + any caster can easily take out a magician. Bronze provides enough AC throughout the old world to get you to level 50 without real problems as a tank. If you want to wear your fancy stuff its a risk. If a mage wears his oracle robe its a risk for him too. Without the oracle robe he has very little mana to kill you when you have any friend with you.

It really works o.k. considering the fact that the game was not really meant for well rounded PVP. Its not as balanced as a rock paper scissors match..but its not as boring either.



CONCLUSION - for anyone who doesn't like to read.

1. PVP without item loot for the poor and weak means PVP is just a nuisance. It gets in the way of attaining the levels and gear you want. The only goal is to get to level 50, get good gear, and then when you get bored make a twink PK of your own.

2. PVP with item loot means PVE and PVP engagements can both be rewarding. PVE is rewarding because it gets you the levels that bring you closer to better gear and a more even footing with PK's. PVP is rewarding because it can also earn you a piece of gear that makes you more powerful, or just richer.

[Billbike]

Item loot fails because of bagging and the risk of ganking.

Gank squads will be at every druid ring and wiz spire.

Everyone will end up playing casters, who can kill naked. Why risk pvp when it's more of a risk for your class?(melee/hybrid)

Most fights are predetermined. The one who initiates the pvp wins prolly 75% of the time. If said initiater is better geared, higher level, or just the right class, it jumps to near 100%.

So why would that player who is being attacked not immediately run/gate and or start bagging their valuables?