sk starting points

[Jimjam]

I’m a but confused, cos you keep saying we have to show 20 str significantly affects dps. It is shown it improves max hit and di multiplier, and been shown to be ~5% improvement (in a situation which is admittedly unlikely to be generalisable).

Are you saying you want the improvement to be shown to be statistically significant, as in p<0.005? Imo this is unnecessary as we know the formula for two ways even just 20 str improves dps (as above) it is simply a case of having sufficient sample size to make the effect measurable.

If you’re asking to show that 5% improvement is meaningful … well I’d use a 38 delay weapon over a 40 delay +20 int weapon while levelling given the choice.

Anyway, for me the 20 str is more about the carry capacity and how I feel it reduces frequency/improves productivity of vendoring and allows you to carry more gear.

I think those are both play-style factors which are a matter of personal preference or value judgement derived enjoyment rather than mathable concepts.

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you are confident about the DPS boost, you need to show your work. I will be happy to admit I am wrong if you can show the DPS numbers.

My numbers (the ones I acknowledged were insufficient in that I didn’t occupy the camp long enough to log enough hits) showed a 16% difference. I was more than happy to exclude my parses from the discussion. My findings were TOO GOOD to be real. They supported my hypothesis to an unbelievable level. The fights were too short and Lady Luck obviously skewed the data. I needed a sample size at least 5-10x larger to be even remotely confident of anything.

I was planning on repeating my testing on a mob that wasn’t a level 5 green, but you somehow took my findings (flawed though they were) and managed to twist it in your mind as somehow being consistent with your findings and supporting your argument when they did the exact opposite.

????

It was at that moment I remembered how it doesn’t actually matter whether opposing evidence is given to you. You always either shift a goalpost or wildly misinterpret what is given to you.

So yeah I gave up on wasting 4-8 hours of my life when the data you provided from Mr Turtle was perfectly sufficient (flawed though it is) to drive the point home.

YOUR numbers showed the 4.3% DPS boost from 20 under cap strength difference. For the purposes of discussion and to give you the benefit of the doubt, WE have been referencing YOUR numbers for several pages now.

Using YOUR evidence that YOU provided …

It’s a choice between:

A) At least 4.3% more damage and 20lb more hauling capacity 100% of the time you’re not overcapped str

B) A mana pool larger in size to whatever degree 20 intelligence will help you at whatever level you are and your intelligence relative to the pre/post 200 intelligence returns. At 60 this could be as high as 200 more mana or as low as 80 more mana. The returns on mana are exponentially lower the lower your level - the amount of mana per int (or wis for priests and their hybrids) scales with level.

A represents an always there benefit - whether you’re in combat or hauling weight.

B represents the possibility of a benefit at some point between level 1-60 where an extra 20-25 mana (low levels) to scaled up 80-200 extra mana (level 60) where that extra mana might have let you accomplish something you otherwise might not have been able to that would have made a meaningful difference. It requires the SK find themselves in not only an extraordinary situation … but also find themselves otherwise out of mana at the point in time that 20-25 (lowest levels) scaling up with levels to 80-200 extra mana (level 60). It doesn’t let you cast more spells over time. It just makes your maximum reserve a wee bit bigger.

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You got so caught up in the weeds of having “evidence” and “data” to “prove a point” that you missed out on the most important part of it all: the practical discussion.

Unfortunately I think when you see posts like this (ones with lots of paragraphs and complete sentences) you tend to focus on individual trees you find objectionable and miss the whole god damn forest around you.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You got so caught up in the weeds of having “evidence” and “data” to “prove a point” that you missed out on the most important part of it all: the practical discussion.

Unfortunately I think when you see posts like this (ones with lots of paragraphs and complete sentences) you tend to focus on individual trees you find objectionable and miss the whole god damn forest around you.

I haven't missed the practical discussion.

If you read my posts, you will see I have leveled an Iksar Monk from 10-52 recently with 140 STR or less, and without Tink Bags. I was getting 1 level an hour, and was able to loot/sell everything. I know from practial experience 160 STR wouldn't have improved my leveling experience compared to 140 STR.

I read everything you post. You are simply too busy trolling and saying nonsense like "you are moving goalposts", when I have been 100% consistent. The only goalpost moving has been other posters switching between "starting stats do not matter" and "STR is giving you a significant DPS boost". This is why most of what you type isn't worth replying to. Typing a lot of paragraphs doesn't mean you are actually saying anything worthwhile.

My current data https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=300 shows the DPS difference is 1.5 or so with +20 STR, and this difference is probably going to be lower at lower levels. This isn't going to be noticeable to a player casually leveling.

If you want to bring some valid data, I would be happy to take a look, and admit I am wrong if you show the DPS difference is large enough to matter.

The data currently shows INT as the best starting stat, and most people agree that starting stats don't really matter.

[Jimjam]

I wouldn’t recommend putting int on a monk tbh.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I wouldn’t recommend putting int on a monk tbh.

Lol agreed. Put your starting stats into STA instead of STR for a Monk.

[Jimjam]

A monk does have much less worry for carry capacity though - doesn't have to worry about carrying around 50+ weight just in armour. I note your monk is using fast primary, which means a higher portion of dps comes from static damage bonus (making str less relevant) furthermore monks have amazing attack levels to punch through mob AC.

My monk wore like cloth tier armour, schw and a wu’s staff til like 40 with no probs. Monks are just op and designed to need minimal gear (in vanilla .. they kinda retained that aspect and then got amazing gear thrown on top anyway in velious and especially kunark)

Did you trial +20 str at any point and switch it out for something else?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

A monk does have much less worry for carry capacity though - doesn't have to worry about carrying around 50+ weight just in armour. I note your monk is using fast primary, which means a higher portion of dps comes from static damage bonus (making str less relevant) furthermore monks have amazing attack levels to punch through mob AC.

My monk wore like cloth tier armour, schw and a wu’s staff til like 40 with no probs. Monks are just op and designed to need minimal gear (in vanilla .. they kinda retained that aspect and then got amazing gear thrown on top anyway in velious and especially kunark)

Did you trial +20 str at any point and switch it out for something else?

While Monk armor is lighter, Tank gear tends to have more STR on it, which offsets the higher weight. Monks also have less gear to choose from.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:TestIksarSK - If you look at the gear here, you will see that the pieces with +STR on them all have a much higher STR value than weight value. The only exception to this is https://wiki.project1999.com/Cloak_of_the_Maelstrom . The test Magelo has 60 stone of gear on, but 20 stone of that is the cloak lol. You can swap that cloak for a number of other ones if you are worried about the weight.

I was using my two handed Imbued Fighters Staff until 50, I didn't get Baton/Addy club until 51, and I couldn't use Epic until 46. Over the leveling process I was improving/changing my gear, so my STR did fluctuate to be lower sometimes, but I was never over 140ish. I never noticed a difference when my STR was lower.

I also didn't bother with keeping my weight under the monk weight limits. I just picked up everything and was often at 50+ stone. I had the usual WR bags: EE Bag, Large Burlap Sack, and Shralok Packs. I bought a single Tink Bag when I was in my 40s just so I could test the mitigation differences between being under the monk weight limit vs. not being under the monk weight limit. It wasn't because I was running into issues where I was unable to sell all my loot.

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You are simply too busy trolling and saying nonsense like "you are moving goalposts"

Pretty sure that's the first time i've said that in this thread.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Pretty sure that's the first time i've said that in this thread.

I apologize if this is your first time saying it here. You have said it to me in other threads when it also was untrue, so I may have been thinking of that.

If you want to claim I am shifting goalposts, you need to show why. I am confident you won't find anything, as I have been consistent throughout this entire thread.

The only goalpost shifting has been to say "starting stats do not matter", and then switching to "starting stats do matter".

I do not mind if people change their position on whether starting stats matter or not. However, people are changing their position to avoid providing evidence for the "starting stats matter" position. This is actual goal post shifting.

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I apologize if this is your first time saying it here. You have said it to me in other threads when it also was untrue, so I may have been thinking of that.

even if you read the 449 page thread ... you'll see that most people who mention moving goalposts ain't me.


Not that i disagree with the sentiment, mind you. It is a common tactic of yours.

Point is using your 2h on Mr Turtle you proved a 4.3% dps difference on a 200ac level 5 mob. The dps variance is likely higher on a level appropriate mob. We are using YOUR numbers at this point.