When are Enchanters will be nerfed?

[azxten]

Originally Posted by sentinel [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I will say I find it funny how everyone is pretending like enchanters were charming like they are on p99. Charm was primarily a CC tool with a high risk/high reward balance. It was never meant to be used regularly to exp.

But my main is an enchanter so I hope nothing is changed.

Some honestly for once. The worst part is that a lot of classic mechanics are nerfed on P99 for being "too powerful" but Enchanter gets to maintain non classic mechanics that make them overpowered.

It has been this way forever and the only times I can remember Enchanter getting nerfed (whirl, etc) is when players got sick of them dominating everything as is happening again now. After years of Enchanters doing everything for groups and trivializing the game whirl got nerfed and now charm is the new whirl.

A big problem is that as P99 has gotten more popular a lot of the players don't give a shit what is classic. They like their custom easy mode server where other people play and they don't give a shit about recreating classic EQ. For example it used to actually be a thing to "prove it" and changes would be made. Now that means literally nothing. There is a fat stack of proven non classic core mechanics and it's getting bigger. It seems like as these players accumulate the devs also don't care about making things classic. That was the appeal but now that there is an established player base things are drifting towards customization because why not? No one has time to actually play classic EQ it's way too difficult and time consuming and not solo friendly. We'll just have classic lite.

Like others said, just get an Enchanter in your group and half AFK watching movies or whatever and watch your character experience fly as the easy loot comes in. No one wants to go back to classic EQ where your Enchanter died every few pulls in pick up groups from people breaking mez too quckly or mez being resisted and mobs perma aggroing the Enchanter. The Enchanter dies and you sit there, doing nothing, for an hour while they run back only to die again trying to get to the group and then the group breaks up and the Enchanters corpse is at the bottom of the dungeon for them to figure out retrieval. That's not fun! Classic lite.

[spoil]

Again with this perma aggro stuff. The enchanter has a whole line of memory blur spells. It's a powerful tool that should be used frequently, I never don't have blanket memorized.

And those old war stories sound like some terrible groups. Obviously a nerf to channeling is going to be significant but in a group where anyone else can stun, snare, root or aggro the pet you shouldn't be dying all over the place.

[Gustoo]

The groups worked fine but enchanters actually grouped because it made sense. As opposed to now where they just duo.

Enchanter was not list of top solo classes on live. And it wasn’t cuz players in 1999 to 2003 were stupid. The good players were good.

[sentinel]

The super channeling is another good point, that shit was rarely successful back in release.

[Elizondo]

Originally Posted by sentinel [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I will say I find it funny how everyone is pretending like enchanters were charming like they are on p99. Charm was primarily a CC tool with a high risk/high reward balance. It was never meant to be used regularly to exp.

But my main is an enchanter so I hope nothing is changed.

Mez was CC back in Live

Not Charm

Bad enchanters 20 years ago did not stack CHA like they do on P99

Hope that helps

[Ennewi]

Originally Posted by sentinel [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I will say I find it funny how everyone is pretending like enchanters were charming like they are on p99. Charm was primarily a CC tool with a high risk/high reward balance. It was never meant to be used regularly to exp.

But my main is an enchanter so I hope nothing is changed.

https://web.archive.org/web/20020723...iary200108.htm

DtV second round 2001/08/01
Today, I will challenge Kael 's DtV .

The strategy is almost the same as last time, throwing a
charmed pet into DtV , and in the meantime, a strategy to have a companion a temple guardian . Pretty smoothly, I succeeded in killing two companions. Can you go to DtV as it is? I thought, but it seems that the mana was a little tight, so I shaved it to 60% and issued a camp instruction. A temple guardian 's repop is 30 minutes, so hurry up to CR and charge to DtV . This can go! Thinking that, when I was completely relieved, one of my pets was suddenly killed. Immediately, the second pet was also killed, and after all, it was destroyed when it was reduced to 40%. It seems that the CH was compromised, and the pet was killed during that time.

https://web.archive.org/web/20020723...iary200107.htm

dark day 2001/07/31

I decided to challenge Derakor the Vindicator , also known as DtV. The strategy is to charm a small fish giant , make it a main tank, and in the meantime, get a temple guardian to accompany you. Then, just before Charge, the Charm ran out, and one was instantly killed in DtV . In the meantime, I was able to defeat a temple guardian , but one pet can't stand Rampage, and the number of people is gradually decreasing. This time, we gave Camp instructions here and timed out (01:30). But it worked out pretty well. I feel like I can do it next time or after that. So , after that, the 8th NPC, Gloradin, was popping in Eastern Wastes , so I created the 8th Ring.

[Jimjam]

I'm confused as to what the 2001 poster is saying he was doing (apart from using charm as part of a strategy to lead a raid against Vindi). In turn I'm also confused as to what you are trying to communicate in reply to Sentinel?

What does 'companion a temple guardian / get a temple guardian to accompany you' mean? Was the 2001 enc faction warring vindi against his guardians while tanking rampage with a pet?

What went wrong each time? Did an invisible GM despawn the charm pet which was being used on the second day? On the first day was it just a bad luck charm break or something else?

What is the narrative here?

[Zuranthium]

Originally Posted by Gustoo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Enchanter was not list of top solo classes on live. And it wasn’t cuz players in 1999 to 2003 were stupid. The good players were good.

There are problems in the p99 code (Lull having such low critical resist chance on MOBs near your level is the most unclassic), but Enchanters were always a good solo class and Charm still had powerful usages in 1999.

It was a very underplayed class the first year of the game, and people definitely refined the ability of the class over time, including player improvements in the modern era. Also, VERY importantly - people's internet, computers, monitors, and game settings got better. Having no lag and far more visibility makes a gigantic difference. Voice chat too. There used to be a few bugs related to charming that don't exist now either.

If people during Classic were commonly charming like they are now, it absolutely would have been nerfed by the devs. That's the most important thing to consider. Personally, in addition to balancing the average duration on Enchanter charm at high levels, I don't think charmed NPC's should be able to get extra attacks via dual wield, nor get the benefit of any haste item outside of the Magician summoned mask. That amount of DPS is unfair and it doesn't make sense for non-dual wielding MOBs to suddenly be doing it (or to be wearing a freaking Tolapumj's Robe when it wouldn't even fit them). I also wouldn't let Enchanters charm every type of animal or undead.

I think the channeling rate difference is a little overstated by some people. With max channeling in original EQ you were definitely able to cast through a single MOB very consistently unless getting stunned. With multiple MOBs attacking it should be considerably more difficult (although I definitely got lots of Gates off in those cases), but Enchanters always had fast-casting AOE stuns they could chain.

[Ennewi]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm confused as to what the 2001 poster is saying he was doing (apart from using charm as part of a strategy to lead a raid against Vindi). In turn I'm also confused as to what you are trying to communicate in reply to Sentinel?

Google translation, so some of the original meaning is lost—anyone fluent in Japanese is welcome to chime in—but from what can be gleaned the original posts suggest that charming giants was common enough practice on vindi, at least for that guild. The only difference being that here they are used for DPS whereas in classic apparently they were sent in to tank/ramp. What went wrong each time, guessing here, is that charm broke and the enchanter went splat to their loose pet/vindi. So while it was high risk/high reward...no one, including enchanters, seemed overly concerned with dying.

https://web.archive.org/web/20020602...iary/diary.htm

When DtV 's Life is 5% remaining, it's almost destroyed (laughs) In the
DtV battle, everyone is bound at a nearby Safe Point, so they
charge naked as it is, and while the meat wall buys time,
Nuke.

...at least not when raiding in Velious.

Regardless of channeling/interrupts, there are still a lot of discussions dating back to the early days with enchanters stating flatly that charmed pets were superior to their summoned versions.

https://web.archive.org/web/20000510...ML/000522.html

Faelkrad
unregistered posted 04-19-2000 11:37 AM Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Welp, first off, it sounds like you may think Enchanters are a pet class. They quite simply aren't, so you'd probably be better of not thinkin that from the start. Their abilities simply don't compare to those of the Mage or Necro. You will be able to use your pet effectively possibly up through level 12, but afterwards charm is quite simply the better alternative. So if you're looking to be able to summon a monster of a pet, read no further and forget about Enchanters.

Earlier than that, if the target was not dead and charm broke, some simply advised enchanters to run for the zoneline. And either some of the pet commands weren't working properly at that point or were implemented at a later point in classic.

https://web.archive.org/web/20000301...ML/000303.html
https://web.archive.org/web/20000302...ML/000313.html

It seems to have taken a while, but people were figuring out how to use/abuse charm during classic and openly talking about it.

https://web.archive.org/web/20000408...ML/000428.html

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What does 'companion a temple guardian / get a temple guardian to accompany you' mean?

I took this to mean they "pulled" the temple guardian away to keep preoccupied. So it accompanied the player elsewhere, allowing the raid time to kill. I share the rest of your questions as well. While this is likely an issue with the translation (since tmk pulling has always been referred to as pulling), back then players did have ways of describing content that would be considered redundant/outdated today. But another topic for another time.

[azxten]

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There are problems in the p99 code (Lull having such low critical resist chance on MOBs near your level is the most unclassic), but Enchanters were always a good solo class and Charm still had powerful usages in 1999.

It was a very underplayed class the first year of the game, and people definitely refined the ability of the class over time, including player improvements in the modern era. Also, VERY importantly - people's internet, computers, monitors, and game settings got better. Having no lag and far more visibility makes a gigantic difference. Voice chat too. There used to be a few bugs related to charming that don't exist now either.

If people during Classic were commonly charming like they are now, it absolutely would have been nerfed by the devs. That's the most important thing to consider. Personally, in addition to balancing the average duration on Enchanter charm at high levels, I don't think charmed NPC's should be able to get extra attacks via dual wield, nor get the benefit of any haste item outside of the Magician summoned mask. That amount of DPS is unfair and it doesn't make sense for non-dual wielding MOBs to suddenly be doing it (or to be wearing a freaking Tolapumj's Robe when it wouldn't even fit them). I also wouldn't let Enchanters charm every type of animal or undead.

I think the channeling rate difference is a little overstated by some people. With max channeling in original EQ you were definitely able to cast through a single MOB very consistently unless getting stunned. With multiple MOBs attacking it should be considerably more difficult (although I definitely got lots of Gates off in those cases), but Enchanters always had fast-casting AOE stuns they could chain.

First year Enchanters were the buggiest class in the game. I've read the posts from that era and Enchanters didn't even mem mezz because it never worked due to line of sight issues. Mezz was a stun at first and Enchanters were stunning and DoTing mobs with choke to kill stuff. It was a totally different situation that is nothing like P99. People begged others not to use their pets and sure as hell didn't want a charmed pet anywhere near them. Charmed pets attacked their own groups and became immune to damage and all kinds of weird stuff. All actual issues we can reference. Charming like we see on P99 never occurred until late in classic close to Kunark launch and it was limited to outdoor zones and raids.

Enchanters did charm on raids and you can read their stories of being supported by a team of players and still dying all the time. That was another thing I learned going down the Enchanter rabbit hole. Classic EQ mobs basically all had hand tuned stats that we'll never be able to recover. Undead just based on memory always had higher MR than other mobs. There was all kinds of wacky customization within the mob types and even individual mobs that we'll never recreate. On P99 a fear mob is just a level X mob it isn't a hand tuned Brad autographed planar mob which probably had ridiculous resists and other stats that made them beast mode compared to P99's wimpy unrest like yard trash mobs.

The channeling differences are about the journey to high level. The only thing people 50+ would really notice is channeling would begin to fall often where multiple mobs were hitting you because you are doing a roll per hit. No more lucky gating out of bad situations or getting things under control with 2-3 mobs on you by casting CC spells. Letting people easily get to 50+ though screws up the server forever. Channeling is about 70% at level 1 on P99 whereas on live it's about 5-10% chance and again one roll that gets modified slightly for every attack you took vs the classsic roll for every hit you take. I assure you, letting people channel like they're level 50 when they are level 1 has a major impact on the server forever and is part of why the raid scene is notoriously shitty here because they missed one of the biggest sources of difficulty in the game so everyone coasts up to max level.