Game Mechanics: Rogue hide and sneak being invis to mobs should be skill dependant

[Holey]

Originally Posted by Cecily [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That's completely wrong. Mobs had a chance to spawn with see invis.

confirmed

[Nirgon]

Yes there was the occasional "the see invis one was up".

Level based does need more more pushing. I'd doubt it was true, but I seem to remember something like that.

[koros]

Originally Posted by Nirgon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Rogean is absolutely correct.

However, check out a little bit on my skill based findings.

I had access to a rogue or two along the way and remember on my alts not being able to sneak/hide past things a higher level rogue could.

I would be very interested in Rogean's opinion there but it may be the case he didn't try sneaking around in zones that were much higher level.

I DO know that getting single pulls could be level dependant as when I hit 58 I could single pull the entrance of seb with non-damaging spells. Or I could pull the higher level frogs away from pack without aggroing the lower ones at that point.



In my lurkings since the change, it looks like they hit the nail on the head tbh.

It was not level dependent. People used level 1 halflings to corpse drag the hole all the time.

Although, in retrospect that may have been due to brell faction

[koros]

Attempting to prove it wasn't so cut and dry as rogue invis = ivu+invis

Dated Feb 1, 2001: http://bcope1.www6.50megs.com/monk/guides/solb.html

Regarding normal invis:

"All monsters can see invisible, so corpse recovery can be a pain, plus you can't easily get to your destination without killing everything on the way"

http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/s...ead.php?t=2855

Regarding rogue invis:

"List of Creatures That Can See Through Hide
Dragons (Vox and Nagafen)
Fire Giants
Scorn Banshees
Lichs
Loathing Lichs
Evil Eyes
Huge Elemental (Lower Guk)"

Less mob types could see rogues than could see other classes. There was substantial overlap tho.

[Velerin]

Rogue hide/sneak was never skill dependent. I remember well my main was a rogue til about 2001. Hide > invis + ivu but there were some mobs that saw thru hide. Pretty much all bosses, FGs, and then some random stuff. I remember well in Sol B that the see invis kobolds did not see hide but the sonic bats did see hide (I'd take a wrong turn in SolB pulling corpses and bam dead by bats). When trying to get to assassin room in Lower Guk (human rogue on VZ sneaking into darkie territory to ninja a DE mask, yay!) as rogue you could hide/sneak past everything except those damn vampire bats could see you unless you hugged wall really well or got lucky on ticks. (Bats seemed to hate rogues) In Plane of Hate a lot of see invis stuff didn't see hide but you had to watch out for liches and something else. You could make it all the way to the epic book drop with hide if you got lucky with spawns. Level 1 Brell rogues could pull corpses in the Hole because the elementals could see hide (but were good faction with you) but the undead (KOS) couldn't see thru hide. As others have posted I'm sure all this stuff has to be up on the Safehouse archives somewhere.

[Xelris]

Chiming in with my personal experience from live. I did not play a rogue, however I did have a close friend I leveled with on a constant basis.

-The rogue was able to perform CRs for us in Sol A, Sol B, Lower Guk, and Old Sebillis without issues, without assistance. This is because he
A)Knew exactly what to look out for and
B)There was a far, far smaller rate of see HIDE in these zones

He was not level 60. He was leveling along with us and after we collectively hit 60 our rate of needing CRs in seb went way down because we were used to the zone and our power levels had collectively gone up.

-The rogue had a HARD time CRing us in the following zones:
A)Dragon Necropolis (due to nasty traps)
B)Sirens Grotto (see-hide seahorses)
C) Plane of Hate / Fear (roving see-hide mobs)
D) Deep Old Sebilis. This means Fungal and Juggernaut areas, nothing before it posed significant risk (including the rassafrassin zone in!)

Really hoping this gets fixed, as it was one of the aspects of the rogue class I was looking forward to playing. As it is, my enc can initiate corpse recoveries better.

[Titanx]

This still needs to be addressed/fixed.

[koros]

I think a good way to solve this would be to level a rogue up on a live server to a decent level and do some reporting on old, mostly unmodified zones.

[Xelris]

Originally Posted by koros [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think a good way to solve this would be to level a rogue up on a live server to a decent level and do some reporting on old, mostly unmodified zones.

I could probably do this easily enough. Hide/sneak isn't based on skill level, it's a binary pass or fail. All that would be needed is for me to help a level 1 with the key quests briefly and then report as needed, unless I had to test planar zones. Cleric would rez and retest at will as well.

Would this suffice to help resolve this issue? As it is it feels like a whole sub-section of benefits to having a rogue in the group is completely nullified, not to mention the perk of zone exploration.

[koros]

Originally Posted by Xelris [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I could probably do this easily enough. Hide/sneak isn't based on skill level, it's a binary pass or fail. All that would be needed is for me to help a level 1 with the key quests briefly and then report as needed, unless I had to test planar zones. Cleric would rez and retest at will as well.

Would this suffice to help resolve this issue? As it is it feels like a whole sub-section of benefits to having a rogue in the group is completely nullified, not to mention the perk of zone exploration.

Agreed it's a binary pass/fail, the only thing skill level ever did was help you hit the "pass" more often. I think a good test would be solb. I'm pretty damn sure the shaman kobolds didn't see rogue invis.