120k SK Twink

[Tecmos Deception]

Pulling is probably the main way a SK can set himself apart.

Besides that I assume it's mostly the little things that add up together. DC aggro is largely wasted if you use it for the initial aggro, due to initial aggro cap. Don't just spam DC, cycle it with AC tap for more threat but at higher mana cost. SKs have some cool other spells too. Pets add DPS if you aren't pulling even if they are a bit more work to manage so they don't get killed by 2 ripostes or whatever. Looks like this CH is cutting it close? Lifetaps!

Compared to someone who just picks a target that isn't CCed and starts spamming DC, while maybe remembering to face so the magician pet can backstab without the magician having to miss med ticks to reposition his pet. Etc.

[Danth]

Originally Posted by Cecily [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm genuinely curious how the super good SKs play differently. Being a good tank in a group scenario is about target selection and positioning. It has nothing to do with skill sets and it's equally relevant to warriors and knights. And actually does require quite a bit of focus and thinking.

Situation awareness is indeed the most important part of the tank job. On the other hand, using all available tools also counts, and makes the difference between a mediocre tank and a good one. I don't know if I'm "super good," but I'm competent, at least. I won't write a comprehensive guide--it's beyond the scope of this thread--but I'll list a few considerations.

--Beyond snap aggro, sustained hate generation on hybrid tanks is both very high and quite consistent. Shamans can spam slow as fast as cooldown allows with no fear of death. However, disease cloud has enough of a cooldown that it, alone, cannot always achieve this.

--Unlike a Warrior, the SK (and Paladin) can build decent aggro on mezzed mobs without breaking mez. Rooted mobs too for that matter. Disease cloud won't do that; it breaks mez and also can break root.

--The SK is the only proper tank with some AE spells. While not high-aggro, it'll outaggro heals and it's invaluable for getting 4 or 5 things on you at the start of a multi-pull.

--If you have a little space to work, you have a short duration fear and quite a good snare: very good for shutting down those complete healing and gating monsters. You'd be surprised how many dungeons allow use of this tactic in perfect safety.

--You have dispell and can pull with it if you want. Nice for getting rid of annoying damage shields in particular.

--Feign is obvious. The Shadow Knight can double as a tolerably decent puller if need be, and sometimes does so even in raids for smaller guilds which don't have brigades of Monks. It's the only tank type with this capability.

--Between invis, feign, fear, and taps, you can sneak around most areas, including most dungeons. Because of this my SK gets more grouping opportunities, especially at desired camps (crypt, etc), than my other tanks ever got. Surprisingly many groups don't bother to clear their tanks down.

--Spell aggro means that the Shaman can keep Torpor running on you without significantly nerfing your threat generation. Heck against heavy-hitters you don't need to turn on attack at all and hence not suck up ripostes. Because of this you will often take less damage against heavy-hitters than a hasted dual-wielding Warrior who isn't in /defensive.

-------------------------------

You're right about the mana costs. One of the nuisances of the Shadow Knight is that it uses necromancer spells that are tuned around the assumption of having mana regen from Lich. Clarity makes a massive difference for the grouping Shadow Knight, far moreso than Haste. The lifetaps get about 50% better in Velious but for now they're a bit weak.

I'll stop there. This post is already long and should suffice for illustrating that there's more to the class than Disease Cloud spam. If you disagree about the importance of anything I mentioned, that's your right. My purpose is not to debate you, but rather to illustrate some options for players who value such things. Not everyone will--and not everyone should play hybrid tanks. I like my Shadow Knight just fine and the class gives good service for everything I ask of it.

Danth

[Daldaen]

Originally Posted by Cecily [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm genuinely curious how the super good SKs play differently. Being a good tank in a group scenario is about target selection and positioning. It has nothing to do with skill sets and it's equally relevant to warriors and knights. And actually does require quite a bit of focus and thinking.

Splitting, non-DMG aggroing mezzed targets to save enchanters, snap aggro on adds/charm breaks/mobs as soon as they hit camp (reaction time being the "skill" part), healing self with lifetaps, HT used as a high aggro ability (like an SK Mallet dump), snare to prevent runners, positioning mobs properly.

Those would be the things I look for on a raiding SK.

[Cecily]

Not much different than how I play ranger. Wasn't aware of that PB debuff though. Actually jealous of that.

[webrunner5]

Originally Posted by Daldaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Splitting, non-DMG aggroing mezzed targets to save enchanters, snap aggro on adds/charm breaks/mobs as soon as they hit camp (reaction time being the "skill" part), healing self with lifetaps, HT used as a high aggro ability (like an SK Mallet dump), snare to prevent runners, positioning mobs properly.

Those would be the things I look for on a raiding SK.

Sounds like he is the Skilled SK player I was talking about. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

And Tec, the Fungi IS a big help in a group, but if it has a Cleric in it, their healing spells are tons more mana efficient than the other 2 healing classes. So not as big of deal to them. A Druid well yes.

But since a lot of SK's Tank and pull, they do take a beating for sure a lot more than say a Warrior, not only probably not pulling often, but with the Warrior AC probably being higher at equal levels, just better AC gear for them if you can afford it, and damage mitigation over the top compared to a SK. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Roguejm11]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Situation awareness is indeed the most important part of the tank job. On the other hand, using all available tools also counts, and makes the difference between a mediocre tank and a good one. I don't know if I'm "super good," but I'm competent, at least. I won't write a comprehensive guide--it's beyond the scope of this thread--but I'll list a few considerations.

--Beyond snap aggro, sustained hate generation on hybrid tanks is both very high and quite consistent. Shamans can spam slow as fast as cooldown allows with no fear of death. However, disease cloud has enough of a cooldown that it, alone, cannot always achieve this.

--Unlike a Warrior, the SK (and Paladin) can build decent aggro on mezzed mobs without breaking mez. Rooted mobs too for that matter. Disease cloud won't do that; it breaks mez and also can break root.

--The SK is the only proper tank with some AE spells. While not high-aggro, it'll outaggro heals and it's invaluable for getting 4 or 5 things on you at the start of a multi-pull.

--If you have a little space to work, you have a short duration fear and quite a good snare: very good for shutting down those complete healing and gating monsters. You'd be surprised how many dungeons allow use of this tactic in perfect safety.

--You have dispell and can pull with it if you want. Nice for getting rid of annoying damage shields in particular.

--Feign is obvious. The Shadow Knight can double as a tolerably decent puller if need be, and sometimes does so even in raids for smaller guilds which don't have brigades of Monks. It's the only tank type with this capability.

--Between invis, feign, fear, and taps, you can sneak around most areas, including most dungeons. Because of this my SK gets more grouping opportunities, especially at desired camps (crypt, etc), than my other tanks ever got. Surprisingly many groups don't bother to clear their tanks down.

--Spell aggro means that the Shaman can keep Torpor running on you without significantly nerfing your threat generation. Heck against heavy-hitters you don't need to turn on attack at all and hence not suck up ripostes. Because of this you will often take less damage against heavy-hitters than a hasted dual-wielding Warrior who isn't in /defensive.

-------------------------------

You're right about the mana costs. One of the nuisances of the Shadow Knight is that it uses necromancer spells that are tuned around the assumption of having mana regen from Lich. Clarity makes a massive difference for the grouping Shadow Knight, far moreso than Haste. The lifetaps get about 50% better in Velious but for now they're a bit weak.

I'll stop there. This post is already long and should suffice for illustrating that there's more to the class than Disease Cloud spam. If you disagree about the importance of anything I mentioned, that's your right. My purpose is not to debate you, but rather to illustrate some options for players who value such things. Not everyone will--and not everyone should play hybrid tanks. I like my Shadow Knight just fine and the class gives good service for everything I ask of it.

Danth

+1

[ctre]

Actually the Pal/SK class will be much more needed in Velious, (off tanking boss mob adds with there ability to snap agro).
Right now, for raids they are of no real value.
Right now in groups EG: sebilis groups, they are great, (however I rather a pally).

[Raev]

Originally Posted by Danth

If you have a little space to work, you have a short duration fear and quite a good snare: very good for shutting down those complete healing and gating monsters. You'd be surprised how many dungeons allow use of this tactic in perfect safety.

This is one of the things I always did on my bard. It worked really well except for the times when I feared my mezzed mobs [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] But I wonder how well it would work at 60; most stuff will be level immune.

Originally Posted by Danth

You have dispell and can pull with it if you want. Nice for getting rid of annoying damage shields in particular.

I think dispell is huge but its the kind of thing that people need to coordinate on. But its hard for me to see what could be better than slamming incoming mobs with 4x Nullify Magics from basically every caster. Shaman mobs will have sow, haste, and tali. Wizards will have shielding and ds. Clerics will cast both heroism and symbol. Stripping all of that nonsense for a few hundred mana seems like a huge win.

Originally Posted by Danth

Feign is obvious. The Shadow Knight can double as a tolerably decent puller if need be, and sometimes does so even in raids for smaller guilds which don't have brigades of Monks. It's the only tank type with this capability.

I don't understand why SKs (and Necros) never pull. Maybe it's just the surplus of monks, but Necros seem straight up fantastic at it, and SKs should be decent. Heck, just summon your shitty little pet and send it in, then FD around the corner and let your group mates tag.

Originally Posted by Danth

One of the nuisances of the Shadow Knight is that it uses necromancer spells that are tuned around the assumption of having mana regen from Lich.

I never thought about it this way, but that makes a lot of sense.

[Swish]

Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't understand why SKs (and Necros) never pull. Maybe it's just the surplus of monks, but Necros seem straight up fantastic at it, and SKs should be decent. Heck, just summon your shitty little pet and send it in, then FD around the corner and let your group mates tag.

The reset mechanics make it more difficult, its not like monks who can get up, sneak and peel one easily. You need to rely on a sneaking rogue/etc to peel for you, and its a risky play getting back up until the rest return to their spot with your cooldown.

If the SK is tanking as well, that's not efficient but is handy if the puller is on a break or can't split them alone.

Pulling on SKs/necros used to be a lot easier here from memory.

[Roguejm11]

It's not mana efficient at all, but if you have an enchanter in the group, Clarity, such as in KC or Seb, I can almost pull non-stop as well as tank.