Enchanter vs Shaman. Who is the better money maker?

[Encroaching Death]

I guess it depends on what you're farming.

If you're killing guards, I'd definitely use a Necro.

If you're after a specific item deep in a dungeon, Enchanter is probably best.

If you need to kill something like a dragon, Shaman with Torpor? I dunno.

Want to Powerlevel? Druid is probably best. Or Monk (always wanted to try that)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I have a 60 sham and 60 mage. Besides double-loot week I haven’t been to Chardok in over a year. I prefer to farm with the mage because it’s less annoying (if one can believe it).

No ench but also a 60 Druid. I think I’d rather gear it and play in Chardok tbh. Like you said the dot/torp/epic song and dance is just a painful ordeal.

I’d definitely put necro and enchanters above the sham. If you have a sham and like the class it’s ability to farm is nice…it’s just not the main perk of the class.

Mages can certainly farm low level areas like Droga efficiently. If you don't mind the endless grind it will get you solid plat. That usually comes down to a personal preference of guaranteed pp per hour vs. camping items which are more hit/miss.

Shamans are quite good at farming a lot of items, and even grinding plat. It is indeed one of their perks, since they can solo very well. The question of which class to use when farming usually comes down to what characters you have. If you have a 60 Enchanter, a 60 Shaman, and a 60 Mage, you have more choices for picking the optimal (or lazy) class for the situation, depending on preference.

If you only have a 60 Shaman like myself, you don't have that option. I can farm plat quite efficiently on my Shaman at a lot of different camps. Even something like Droga isn't bad since you can just pull 9 mobs and root/rot them. That is around 135 DPS, closer to 150 DPS if you are also using your pet. A Mage with Epic pet is doing 80-90 DPS with the pet, with around 25 DPS from Epic Pet damage shield, and probably using a clickie like Burnt Wood Staff or Boots of Bladecalling to save mana. That is 90 DPS + 25 + 25-35 depending on the clickie, so 140-150 DPS. Depending on how many goblins the pet can tank simultaneously, you will get 25 extra DPS per goblin hitting. Since most Mage's don't have their Epic pet, this DPS number would be a bit lower, I just don't have any logs from other Mage pets at the moment to give exact numbers.

[Ripqozko]

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[Encroaching Death]

Originally Posted by Ripqozko [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

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[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you only have a 60 Shaman like myself, you don't have that option. I can farm plat quite efficiently on my Shaman at a lot of different camps. Even something like Droga isn't bad since you can just pull 9 mobs and root/rot them. That is around 135 DPS, closer to 150 DPS if you are also using your pet. A Mage with Epic pet is doing 80-90 DPS with the pet, with around 25 DPS from Epic Pet damage shield, and probably using a clickie like Burnt Wood Staff or Boots of Bladecalling to save mana. That is 90 DPS + 25 + 25-35 depending on the clickie, so 140-150 DPS. Depending on how many goblins the pet can tank simultaneously, you will get 25 extra DPS per goblin hitting. Since most Mage's don't have their Epic pet, this DPS number would be a bit lower, I just don't have any logs from other Mage pets at the moment to give exact numbers.

This is a really horrible example of napkin math. You aren't factoring in root casting time, canni time to regain root mana, and casting time on the epic.

For an example, Rooting & killing 9 mobs with 1 epic click each is around 193.5 seconds including casting times. That's 66 dps(12825 total epic damage). Then you'd have to go off and find other mobs to root, click epic,. And by the time you root rot a 10th mob, the first 1 will die. Before you get to the 11th cast off, the 2nd mob dies. The reality is you're doing 75-80ish dps when you factor in canni + pet + epic. A mage is easily doing around ~150.

There's no comparison here, I'm not sure why you think shaman dps = mage dps, when you've constantly been proved wrong time and time again.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is a really horrible example of napkin math. You aren't factoring in root casting time, canni time to regain root mana, and casting time on the epic.

For an example, Rooting & killing 9 mobs with 1 epic click each is around 193.5 seconds including casting times. That's 66 dps(12825 total epic damage). Then you'd have to go off and find other mobs to root, click epic,. And by the time you root rot a 10th mob, the first 1 will die. Before you get to the 11th cast off, the 2nd mob dies. The reality is you're doing 75-80ish dps when you factor in canni + pet + epic. A mage is easily doing around ~150.

There's no comparison here, I'm not sure why you think shaman dps = mage dps, when you've constantly been proved wrong time and time again.

If you want to take "time to find mobs" into account, then Mages lose DPS too hehe. It also takes time for the Mage to run and find other mobs. It also takes time for Mages to manage their pet. You can't simply claim this for one class and not the other. Napkin math is there because I can't predict the precise play style of every player in P99, so mileage will always vary a bit[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You can root the 9 mobs before you start applying the Epic clicks. So yes, you can have 135 DPS + Pet DPS once you get that rolling. It takes around 30 seconds to root all of those mobs using paralyzing earth, so yes, you are losing DPS if you want to take that time into account. But as I said before, most Mages don't have their Epic. The numbers I gave for Mages is using the EPIC PET. Not only do Mages probably have lower DPS by not having their epic pet, but you also need to take into account the time/mana it takes to chain cast pets and re-apply your damage shield, burnout, and maybe mask of mardu if you are using it.

The issue here is you have some weird idea that I am trying to say Shaman DPS = Mage DPS. What I am saying is Shamans can do a lot of DPS, and for some reason people don't believe it. Mage DPS is better at single target fights, there is no question. But when a Shaman can root/rot multiple targets, you are killing a lot faster than you think.

[Ripqozko]

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[Encroaching Death]

Originally Posted by Ripqozko [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

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[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you want to take "time to find mobs" into account, then Mages lose DPS too hehe. It also takes time for the Mage to run and find other mobs. It also takes time for Mages to manage their pet. You can't simply claim this for one class and not the other. Napkin math is there because I can't predict the precise play style of every player in P99, so mileage will always vary a bit[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You can root the 9 mobs before you start applying the Epic clicks. So yes, you can have 135 DPS + Pet DPS once you get that rolling. It takes around 30 seconds to root all of those mobs using paralyzing earth, so yes, you are losing DPS if you want to take that time into account. But as I said before, most Mages don't have their Epic. The numbers I gave for Mages is using the EPIC PET. Not only do Mages probably have lower DPS by not having their epic pet, but you also need to take into account the time/mana it takes to chain cast pets and re-apply your damage shield, burnout, and maybe mask of mardu if you are using it.

The issue here is you have some weird idea that I am trying to say Shaman DPS = Mage DPS. What I am saying is Shamans can do a lot of DPS, and for some reason people don't believe it. Mage DPS is better at single target fights, there is no question. But when a Shaman can root/rot multiple targets, you are killing a lot faster than you think.

If you had 9 mobs already rooted, it would take you around 85 seconds to epic dot all 9 mobs. So it would take 85 seconds + 90 seconds to kill all 9 mobs. That is 12825 / 171 = 71.25 DPS. Factor in 30 seconds of rooting, 12825 / 201 = 64 DPS.

If you had 18 mobs already rooted. It would take you around 170 seconds to dot all of them. So 170 seconds + 90 seconds to kill all 18 mobs. 25650 / 260 = 99 DPS. If you want to factor in 60 seconds of rooting, 25650 / 290 = 88 DPS. That's being generous, you wont be able to root 18 mobs in 60 seconds.

We still haven't calculated in the multiple minutes to regain your mana it will take when you run OOM after like 30ish roots.

Epic has diminishing returns because its long casting time, there are only so many mobs you can keep epic dotted. You can't simply say it's 15 dps and multiply that by any number you want indefinitely. This is why shaman's typically only root rot about 4-5 at a time. It's extremely diminishing returns. I was being generous with shamans in my previous post. If we are taking away epic pets from mages, then in reality a shaman is probably doing around 60ish dps in droga, where a mage will have no problem maintaing 120ish dps.

At this point based on your previous response I can only assume you are incapable of understanding basic math, so I can no longer debate such matters with you.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you had 9 mobs already rooted, it would take you around 85 seconds to epic dot all 9 mobs. So it would take 85 seconds + 90 seconds to kill all 9 mobs. That is 12825 / 171 = 71.25 DPS. Factor in 30 seconds of rooting, 12825 / 201 = 64 DPS.

If you had 18 mobs already rooted. It would take you around 175 seconds to dot all of them. So 170 seconds + 90 seconds to kill all 18 mobs. 25650 / 260 = 99 DPS. If you want to factor in 60 seconds of rooting, 25650 / 290 = 88 DPS. That's being generous, you wont be able to root 18 mobs in 60 seconds.

We still haven't calculated in the multiple minutes to regain your mana it will take when you room OOM after like 30ish roots.

Epic has diminishing returns because its long casting time, there are only so many mobs you can keep epic dotted. You can't simply say it's 15 dps and multiply that by any number you want indefinitely. This is why shaman's typically only root rot about 4-5 at a time. It's extremely diminishing returns. I was being generous with shamans in my previous post. If we are taking away epic pets from mages, then in reality a shaman is probably doing around 60ish dps in droga, where a mage will have no problem maintaing 120ish dps.

At this point based on your previous response I can only assume you are incapable of understanding basic math, so I can no longer debate such matters with you.

The problem here is you really want to "prove me wrong" and/or insult me (due to the previous thread), rather than understand what I am saying.

What you are talking about is trying to determine the average DPS over the duration of the fight.

Let's say each mob has 2000 HP. We are not going to include pull times into this, because that is quite varied across camps/players.

It takes me 30 seconds to apply all of the roots.

It takes me 81 seconds to apply 9 clicks of Epic, assuming perfect refresh.

The last monster to die will have their DoT started at 111 seconds into the fight. It will take 90 seconds for the DoTs to clear, but only 81 seconds to re-apply, so the last monster to die will have taken full damage and had their DoT re-applied by the 201 second mark. Since the DoT doesn't need to apply full damage to kill a mob with 2000 HP, the fight will take roughly another 66 seconds (11 ticks) for a total of 267 seconds. In that case, the DPS total is 18000 / 267 = 67 DPS. Pet DPS is around 15, so if you add that together it is more like 83 DPS. It will then take roughly 1 minute to Torpor/Canni back 900 mana from the roots.

The reason why I say 135 DPS as a short hand is because I am also doing the same thing for Mages with the 150 DPS, where I am putting the best possible DPS in a vacuum, instead of writing the longer explanation above, so people can get a rough estimate without doing a lot of reading. As you will see below, Mages also have lower DPS when applying additional factors.

As for a Non-Epic Mage, let's say their pet does 70 DPS (it's a rough estimate since Epic Pet's factually do 80-90 DPS). This is with Burnout and Mask of Mardu.

A Mage's damage shield does 33 Damage compared to the Epic Pet's 50 damage, so the DPS is roughly 16 (66% of the 25 DPS quoted above).

A Mage spamming Boots of Bladecalling is doing 35 DPS.

Combined that is 120 DPS in a vacuum.

However, this is not taking into account chain petting. Lets say you are chain petting every other mob. All level 60 pets cost 370 mana after specialization reduction and has a 10 second cast time. Cadeu of Flame is 155 mana and has a 4.5 second cast time. Burnout is 15 seconds on the pants clickie.

That means every other mob, you are spending a minimum of 30 seconds recasting the pet and re-appplying buffs. That is reducing the Boots of Bladecalling DPS by Half, as well as lowering your pet/DS dps. Realistically if you are chain petting every other mob, you are losing roughly 30 DPS on the second mob, so your average is more like 105 DPS. The mana cost is also 525, and if you are spamming Boots of Bladecalling you are not meditating. So realistically your DPS is going down further when taking into account med times.

In more precise terms, the DPS difference is closer to 83 vs 95 when taking into account the extra meditating a Mage needs to do because they can't sit down while spamming the Boots. The difference of 12 isn't really much different than the 135/150 number I was showing with Mages vs. Shamans. It's just a lot easier to say that instead of everything else I said just now[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]