Paladin shield question

[PatChapp]

While not a paladin, I had a heal land on my warrior in an aow fight for 6485 hp. He has 6500hp buffed, it is the closest for sure

This is obciously an outlier,and usually 25hp isnt the difference.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by PatChapp [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

While not a paladin, I had a heal land on my warrior in an aow fight for 6485 hp. He has 6500hp buffed, it is the closest for sure

This is obciously an outlier,and usually 25hp isnt the difference.

You are correct that the 25 HP would matter more if it got you over a specific HP threshold, like the tanking AoW HP threshold. But that would only be an issue if you have a specific gear combination that puts you 25 hp or less under the threshold.

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Lol it is uncanny.

We don't disagree on everything because you are not wrong about everything. I'm happy to agree with you when you are right [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In the rare instance I am wrong or have a poor understanding of a thing I will own up to it. In any instance of me being wrong - my mind is open and changeable. There are a lot of things I don't know - and when it comes to those things you'll usually just see me be quiet and try to learn from those around me who know things I do not. I learn pretty quickly who is a trusted source of information and who isn't.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...d.php?t=408174

I'm really embarrassed to link this but it's a really good example. I was wrong. I was assertively wrong. I face-planted into steaming pile of dung of my very own making. My ego is gonna take a hit as it has sunk down now to page 5 but I'm a big boy and I'll own it. I was using napkin math and there was a variable unknown to me that screwed all my calculations up royally. I was quite wrong about a thing I was quite sure I was right about.

The rub: On p99 you do not get damage bonus DAMAGE from your offhand but the server-side there is an issue where it does give you damage bonus THREAT from offhand swings even though the damage isn't applied.

Posts like this I thought I had it all figured out:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...4&postcount=41

Joke was on me. Offhand swings do generate white dmg potential threat AND dmg bonus threat. I was so completely off base that the mountain I had confidently built and was standing on crumbled under my feet.

Frostreaver was and remains a very strong aggro weapon. I still can't assist with it safely. Now that I have 2h epic I still feel confident in saying that it still holds the edge in threat generation over the epic.

But my math was wrong and Willsapper + Red epic with 255 dex is still stronger than Frostreaver on any content where I'm not silenced.

I was providing a damage example, it was the first one that popped into my head. 25 HP generally doesn't do anything against raid targets due to how hard they hit for.

The point you were making still stands. I sometimes make fun of warrior buddies of mine who insist on getting POTG + symbol (+/- ac) buffs instead of just using Aegolism. Aego is 1 buff slot instead of 2/3, requires 1 ask and one action from 1 buffer and has a hugely long buff timer. You give up what ... like 70hp? As a realist .. 70hp isn't gonna make/break a thing. Outside of AoW as an example, if 70hp was the difference then it was a healing issue. Did ya have enough clerics? Was your chain too loose? Was your chain too sloppy (this is typically the issue - a gap or general sloppy chain).

But the counter argument is that ok 70hp MIGHT bake a difference. But in the situation where it DID make a difference, how much would the extra shield ac on the other shield have made the difference? Would it have? Maybe. Maybe not.

Choice 1: 30ac 10str 100hp
Choice 2: 40ac 10str 15 wis 75hp + 5 all saves
Choice 3: 55ac 20str 20wis 50hp

If I had all 3, I would:

-Never choose 1.
-Choose 2 only when resists were an issue and actually resisting (either fully or partially) was important.
-Choose 3 pretty much all of the rest of the time. I'd happily give up 50hp for 25 shield ac or 25hp for 15 shield ac.

If I lived in a universe where I was only ever allowed to use 1 of the 3 shields, it would be choice 2 probably. Balance.

(The real choice I would make most of the time would be none of the above and just use a NToV 2hander)

Originally Posted by PatChapp [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

While not a paladin, I had a heal land on my warrior in an aow fight for 6485 hp. He has 6500hp buffed, it is the closest for sure

This is obviously an outlier, and usually 25hp isn't the difference.

It has happened before to people. It will happen again. Instances like these are far and away the outliers and not the norm. HP is king on this server but only to a point. There are points where you have to step back and be a realist.

[Eisai]

Wish i could quote just the threat part but eight thousand back spaces on flip phone is outside my patience.

Offhand gives bonus threat? Does this have a benefit that might make the 1H V. 2H tanking result change (namely for nonraid targets / leveling)?

Sorry for topic crossover.

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by Eisai [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Offhand gives bonus threat? Does this have a benefit that might make the 1H V. 2H tanking result change (namely for nonraid targets / leveling)?

Yeah it was something I had not considered at the time.

When calculating threat potential it's a combination of damage threat and proc threat.

Damage threat applies whether you hit or miss. It is a function of your weapon ratio, the damage bonus for your level, and the speed with which you are swinging. Full haste = a lot more threat than no haste. Hit or miss - you get static aggro per swing (hit attempt).

What I DID know was that you got 11 threat per swing attempt on primary hand (dmg bonus at 60) on top of the ratio part. The faster you swing the more quickly you apply this bonus. What I DID NOT know was that even though you do not get damage bonus damage, it still gives you 11 threat per swing of your offhand weapon.

If you know all the variables:

-weapon ratios
-haste
-% double attack
-% dual wield (if dual wielding)
-% double attack + dual wield (if dual wielding)
-% triple attack (if warrior and level 60)
-proc hate values
-relative proc rate (2x ppm primary 1x ppm offhand at 255 dex)

You absolutely can napkin math average expected AVERAGE threat per second/minute. The wild card is that procs are streaky and can be anything other than average. White threat should be very consistent/predictable over time.

But yes, if offhand does apply damage bonus hate that makes this weapon the single highest threat offhand weapon in the game for warriors:

https://wiki.project1999.com/Nevederia%27s_Horn

The proc isn't exactly massive threat (it is pretty small) but you only get on average 1 proc per minute for offhand at 255 dex. The ratio is good. The delay is so blisteringly fast that you're applying that extra damage bonus threat at machine-gun speed.

----------------------------

In that OTHER thread, I was not aware about offhand damage bonus threat. In the absence of that non-classic offhand damage bonus threat, Dain's Frostreaver put out top tier threat (comparable to the best dual wield setups). Because such a big chunk of the threat came from a source that was always reliable (swing threat: ratio + dmg bonus), the aggro is or would have been a lot less subject to wild fluctuations as it didn't rely as much on unreliable procs.

Still a great weapon. Still great aggro. It just turns out it wasn't as tippy top as my original napkin math stated it would be compared to some of the better dual wield options for the raiding warrior.

[Ripqozko]

so still the same answer 100hp for raid, 55ac for group content. idk what yall use knights for but ours tank legit raid targets in riot, if you have a ch youll benefit from max hp more. rest of yalls junk answers is fluff.

[Eisai]

Originally Posted by Ripqozko [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

so still the same answer 100hp for raid, 55ac for group content. idk what yall use knights for but ours tank legit raid targets in riot, if you have a ch youll benefit from max hp more. rest of yalls junk answers is fluff.

But if secondary raises AC cap so you take 26 less damage..?

[Ripqozko]

Originally Posted by Eisai [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But if secondary raises AC cap so you take 26 less damage..?

you stack hp to prevent a 1 round max hit

you still want ac but it works better in 6 man where mob attack is low.

you can do what ya want this is the answer tho.

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by Ripqozko [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

you stack hp to prevent a 1 round max hit

I get it. I really do. There are only a tiny handful of mobs in the game that can 1-round you if buff out to as little as 5k. Of those mobs, knights aren't gonna be tanking any of them. Well raid-geared knights will be buffing higher than that. If well geared raid knights buff well above the threshold for a 1 round max, where is the point that the knight acknowledges that 25 more shield ac is worth more than 50hp?

Food for thought.

[Ripqozko]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I get it. I really do. There are only a tiny handful of mobs in the game that can 1-round you if buff out to as little as 5k. Of those mobs, knights aren't gonna be tanking any of them. Well raid-geared knights will be buffing higher than that. If well geared raid knights buff well above the threshold for a 1 round max, where is the point that the knight acknowledges that 25 more shield ac is worth more than 50hp?

Food for thought.

my alt is 6.3k we buff out to 6.5k we knight tank most of tov now.