Best 4 person all caster/priest group

[Vexenu]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Shaman is better in fortior's solo farm crew idea because the Shaman with Torpor can solo something like A4 when there are no duo targets available to snipe. With a Cleric you would be forced to have a Cleric/Enchanter or Cleric/Wizard duo, so you can't spread out as much. Having a Shaman is much more flexible. I can't think of anything that a Cleric/Enchanter duo could do that a Shaman/Enchanter duo could not do at 60. The Shaman's strength at soloing is a bigger factor in the solo farm crew idea.

You would want Shaman/Enchanter/Enchanter/Wizard.

I think most players who do not maintain a permanent residence in Oggok would agree that the Cleric brings more value to this group than the Shaman, if only for the fact that if you are running around attempting risky stuff all the time you are inevitably going to die on a regular basis. Having rez in that case is obviously very desirable. Maintaining Aego on charming Enchanters is also very helpful for preventing death in the first place, as are the Cleric's stuns. The idea that the Shaman is preferable for the group "because he solos better" is asinine. We're all the way back to your ridiculous argument about a Shaman DPSing by rooting rotting mobs next to the charm killing group.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Vexenu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think most players who do not maintain a permanent residence in Oggok would agree that the Cleric brings more value to this group than the Shaman, if only for the fact that if you are running around attempting risky stuff all the time you are inevitably going to die on a regular basis. Having rez in that case is obviously very desirable. Maintaining Aego on charming Enchanters is also very helpful for preventing death in the first place, as are the Cleric's stuns. The idea that the Shaman is preferable for the group "because he solos better" is asinine. We're all the way back to your ridiculous argument about a Shaman DPSing by rooting rotting mobs next to the charm killing group.

I don't think it is asinine that the Shaman can solo A4 when you don't need a duo. Getting a 40K drop in PoM while your Enchanter is soloing in SG seems pretty good to me!

A farm crew like that can easily level a pocket cleric if they want res on demand. Or the Wizard can just port a Cleric to the bodies. It's really not difficult to do this with a dedicated porter.

[Vexenu]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't think it is asinine that the Shaman can solo A4 when you don't need a duo. Getting a 40K drop in PoM while your Enchanter is soloing in SG seems pretty good to me!

A farm crew like that can easily level a pocket cleric if they want res on demand. Or the Wizard can just port a Cleric to the bodies. It's really not difficult to do this.

Conversely, the farm crew could maintain a pocket Shaman parked at A4!

Checkmate.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Vexenu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Conversely, the farm crew could maintain a pocket Shaman parked at A4!

Checkmate.

It's much easier/cheaper/faster to level a pocket cleric to 49, instead of leveling a Shaman to 60 with Torpor. That is a silly argument. You want your main characters to be the classes that benefit from being level 60 the most. If you are part of a guild you may even have cleric bots already leveled and available!

[Vexenu]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's much easier/cheaper/faster to level a pocket cleric to 49, instead of leveling a Shaman to 60 with Torpor. That is a silly argument. You want your main characters to be the classes that benefit from being level 60 the most.

Of course it's a silly argument, the point is it's inherently a silly argument to start talking about pocket ANYTHING when you're discussing a 4 man group, because at that point it becomes an entirely different conversation altogether. The discussion must be limited to the abilities of the 4 classes in question, otherwise it's meaningless, because most serious players have multiple geared level 60 characters they can bring in if needed, meaning that a "4 man group" theoretically has access to every class, which renders the entire discussion moot.

[cyxthryth]

Originally Posted by Vexenu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

most serious players have multiple geared level 60 characters they can bring in if needed

Vexenu is absolutely 100% correct about this. I wonder how many geared level 60's DSM has!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Vexenu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Of course it's a silly argument, the point is it's inherently a silly argument to start talking about pocket ANYTHING when you're discussing a 4 man group, because at that point it becomes an entirely different conversation altogether. The discussion must be limited to the abilities of the 4 classes in question, otherwise it's meaningless, because most serious players have multiple geared level 60 characters they can bring in if needed, meaning that a "4 man group" theoretically has access to every class, which renders the entire discussion moot.

No, that is not correct at all. It takes a lot longer to level and gear multiple level 60s. Converesly, plenty of people level pocket Clerics instead of making a new level 60 character. You can stop leveling the cleric at 49. It's an apples to oranges comparison.

And again, since you have a Wizard, it isn't difficult to get a random Cleric to help you out. You aren't including a Necromancer for corpse summons, even though that would be convenient. Why? Because you can ask other people to help! The same principle applies for resing.

Originally Posted by cyxthryth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I wonder how many geared level 60's DSM has!

That is my point exactly. I have only 1 level 60 character, and plenty of characters around level 50 lol. Why? because leveling from 1-50 is much easier and faster. It is a silly argument to say you can make a "pocket Torpor Shaman".

[Vexenu]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No, that is not correct at all. It takes a lot longer to level and gear multiple level 60s. Converesly, plenty of people level pocket Clerics instead of making a new level 60 character.

It's an apples to oranges comparison. And again, since you have a Wizard, it isn't difficult to get a random Cleric to help you out.

Tell me if I'm understanding your thinking correctly. Here is basically what you've been saying, as far as I can tell:

1) Shamans are great group DPS, because they can root rot different mobs off to the side of the group to take full advantage of their long duration DoTs.

2) Shamans are great in a farm group because they can split off and solo mobs while the rest of the group does something else.

3) Shamans are overall better than Clerics in a 4 man group because you can always just log on a pocket Cleric to provide a rez.

Is this a fair assessment of your views?

[cyxthryth]

Originally Posted by cyxthryth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It seems you might have missed where Vexenu said "how many valuable targets can we safely and reliably kill" in their post. Even discounting stuns and CH, a Cleric is simply safer and more reliable than a Shaman because the Cleric class can Pacify, Atone & Rez and therefore, even if the group nearly wipes they can camp the cleric & log back in to rez & recover. This means even if the Cleric is the only person in the 4-man group who survived, the group with Cleric healer has a non-zero chance to recover their entire group then-and-there, without needing to find and/or wait (AND/OR PAY) for rezzes, drags or corpse summons, etc. The Shaman toolkit doesn't have an answer for this scenario and the Cleric's does. It's as simple as that.

Cleric is simply safer & more reliable than Shaman, because a Cleric's superior utility over a Shaman's simply offers safer & more reliable solutions to inevitable deaths/wipes, which Shaman's toolkit simply has no answer for.

DSM agrees:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Utility provides consistency, which can also translate to more kills over multiple hours. If your group can handle an emergency situation easier, that also reduces player fatigue and the chance of a wipe.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Vexenu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Tell me if I'm understanding your thinking correctly. Here is basically what you've been saying, as far as I can tell:

1) Shamans are great group DPS, because they can root rot different mobs off to the side of the group to take full advantage of their long duration DoTs.

2) Shamans are great in a farm group because they can split off and solo mobs while the rest of the group does something else.

3) Shamans are overall better than Clerics in a 4 man group because you can always just log on a pocket Cleric to provide a rez.

Is this a fair assessment of your views?

1) In an XP group where the mobs are trivial and the Enchanters do not need a Cleric/Shaman for backup, the Shaman can Root Rot for more DPS if the group wants it. This is not always necessary because 2x Enchanters are already doing a ton of DPS. DPS has diminishing returns after a certain point due to 30 minute spawn timers in most zones. That is why brining more DPS, such as a Mage, will not always translate into more kills per hour. If there is a small gain in kills per hour, maybe 5 mobs or something, the Shaman's extra utility is still going to be better, because it reduces the chance of a group wipe, and you are sacrificing very little XP for that benefit. There is a reason why you don't see a lot of 6 player XP groups. The extra DPS from adding 2-3 players simply does not translate to enough XP to justify the extra DPS.

2) A Shaman/Enchanter/Enchanter/Wizard solo farm crew can split off and solo at 3-4 separate camps when there are no duo/group targets in window. If you are sniping something like Magi in Hate, he has a long respawn timer, so it isn't like you are always in a situation where you are camping something that requires a duo or group. With a Cleric, you reduce the possible split to 2-3 separate camps, which means you have less flexibility. Fortior's idea is to have the group split up into solo players to maximize gains. The Shaman is NOT the only solo player in this scenario.

3) It is a fact that pocket Clerics are a common strategy on P99, because leveling to 49 is not difficult. Individual players and guilds do it. Denying this fact is not benefiting the conversation. If you are opposed to creating a pocket Cleric for some strange reason, you can usually find a Cleric who is willing to res you if you tip them. The Wizard can provide the ports, so it isn't a problem.