Iksar Shaman - Solo Challenges?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

On standard xp mobs malo doesn’t provide value. Resist rate is already low so that’s just wasted mana [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Agreed. I stopped using the malo line of spells while leveling from 50-60. My spells all landed enough of the time.

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

but you’ll end up killing fewer mobs per unit time due to recovery and down time [with JBB]. Remember… we’re talking about leveling with or without JBB here - no 60 and no torpor.

As I said, this is easy to disprove with math: https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=434

JBB is more efficient for leveling than root rotting and dotting all the way to 60, even when comparing an Ogre with JBB to an Iksar without JBB (racial regen).

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Shaman would have been a more interesting class without torpor. Druids should have gotten torpor. It was a mistake to give that kind of heal on a class that can slow, convert their hp to mana, CC, have a pocket pet, some of the best buffs, AND some pretty heavy hitting and mana efficient dots.

I do agree that pre-torpor Shamans are a lot of fun. I really enjoyed my JBB + Fungi Tunic + Fungi Staff + Black Fur Boots combo.

[Duik]

On standard xp mobs malo doesn’t provide value. Resist rate is already low so that’s just wasted mana

Got it. I was just going off the statement that said resists on dots, slow and root need to be taken into account. Also i never earnt enough cash on live to buy a jbb so never tested any of this.
I took a druid to a higher lvl and that would have been splendid having a mana efficient heal like torp. But nvm.

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As I said, this is easy to disprove with math: https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=434

JBB is more efficient for leveling than root rotting and dotting all the way to 60, even when comparing an Ogre with JBB to an Iksar without JBB (racial regen).

No.

You didn’t.

I literally showed you the exact opposite:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=416

You then moved the goalposts to a theoretical fight in PoM (rats). The mob now has 7k hp. I played along nicely. You moved the goalpost but I plugged in the exact parameters you provided. I even adjusted the pet dps up to 17 to accommodate YOUR parameters.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=430

Just face the music. You were wrong.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No.

You didn’t.

I literally showed you the exact opposite:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=416

You then moved the goalposts to a theoretical fight in PoM (rats). The mob now has 7k hp. I played along nicely. You moved the goalpost but I plugged in the exact parameters you provided. I even adjusted the pet dps up to 17 to accommodate YOUR parameters.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=430

Just face the music. You were wrong.

Everybody can see your calculations are incorrect and do not take into account all of the variables. Doing the math incorrectly and declaring victory is just silly. People can just read your post for themselves and see it. This is how it should look https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=434 .

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Here is an easier to read version, using Troxx's example with the 1x regular root:

Criteria
=========
1. Level 58 Shaman.
2. Mob does 10 DPS while slowed with Togor's Insects.
3. 7000 HP mob, A Ratfink from PoM Rat Maze.
4. Ogre Shaman gains 28.46 Mana per tick while canni dancing with overhead from self Regrowth and pet Celerity over 1 hour.
5. Iksar Shaman gains 33.44 Mana per Tick while canni dancing with overhead from self Regrowth and pet Celerity over 1 hour.

Ogre with JBB
=============
- JBB (32.8 DPS) + Hasted Pet (17 DPS) + Blight, Hammer of the Scourge weapon proc (2.2 DPS) = 53 DPS
- 396 HP recovered from Standing Regen (3 HP) + Regrowth (15 HP) over 22 ticks
- 1320 damage taken from face tanking (10 DPS)
- 22 Mana recovered from Standing Regen (1 Mana) over 22 ticks
- 175 Mana spent on 1x Togor's Insects

615 Total mana spent using the values above

132 seconds to kill the mob (53 DPS)
130 Seconds of recovery time when recovering 28.46 mana per tick via canni dance

262 Second of encounter time per mob including recovery.

Iksar without JBB using root/rotting
=============
- 2x Envenomed Bolt (2665 Damage) + 1x Plague (1270 Damage) + Hasted and Regened Pet (17 DPS) = ~37.2 DPS when factoring in DoTs will not be active for the full fight
- 501 HP recovered from canni dance regen (16 HP) over 31 ticks
- 658 Mana recovered from canni dance regen (21 Mana) over 31 ticks
- 640 Mana spent on 2x Envenomed Bolts
- 300 Mana spent on 1x Plague
- 175 Mana spent on 1x Togor's Insects
- 30 Mana spent on 1x Root
- 125 Mana spent due to losing 5 canni dance ticks while casting the 5 spells above
- 69 Mana spent on overhead from casting Regen on Pet for the full hour

431 Total Mana Spent from the values above

188 seconds to kill the mob (37.2 DPS)
77 seconds of recovery time when recovering 33.44 mana per tick via canni dance

265 Seconds of encounter time per mob including recovery.

When you factor in all of the overhead, you will see that the JBB Shaman clears the encounter 3 seconds faster using Troxx's exact example of 1x Root, 2x Envenomed Bolts, 1x Plague, and 1x Togor's Insects. This example does not take into account the DoT Shaman's increased chances of spell resists (spending more mana), root breaks (spending more mana, taking damage), and requirement to canni dance perfectly while in combat (gaining less mana when missing the server tick).

This is why JBB is the better leveling tool from 45-60. Even when comparing a Shaman race with Regen to a Shaman race without Regen, the JBB wins. Simplifying your playstyle and reducing RNG while clearing mobs at the same speed is better in the long run. You save a good amount of time and mana by avoiding the extra RNG elements that root/rotting has.

For people who want to see more details on some of the calculations:

 

- An Ogre Shaman normally gets 6 (sitting regen) + 15 (regrowth) = 21 HP and 21 mana per tick while canni dancing. This translates to 32 mana per tick after cannibalizing the HP. Casting 4x Celerity costs 740 mana per hour, and casting 4x regrowth costs 1200 mana. Casting 8x spells also causes you to lose 8 ticks of canni dancing. This means you lose 160 meditation mana and 48 HP (24 Mana cannibalized). 740 + 1200 + 160 + 24 = 2124 / 600 ticks per hour = 3.58 mana regeneration per tick over an hour. 32 - 3.54 = 28.46 Mana per tick while canni dancing after considering overhead.

- An Iksar Shaman normally gets 16 (sitting regen) + 15 (regrowth) = 31 HP and 21 mana per tick while canni dancing. This translates to 37 mana per tick after cannibalizing the HP. Casting 4x Celerity costs 740 mana per hour, and casting 4x regrowth costs 1200 mana. Casting 8x spells also causes you to lose 8 ticks of canni dancing. This means you lose 160 meditation mana and 80 HP (40 Mana cannibalized). 740 + 1200 + 160 + 40 = 2140 / 600 ticks per hour = 3.566 mana regeneration per tick over an hour. 37 - 3.566 = 33.44 Mana per tick while canni dancing after considering overhead.

[bcbrown]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Either you use a higher mana slow to cover those cases in the example, or you assume that you are casting at least 2x 30 mana roots per fight. Just remember that casting another spell in combat incurs another meditation tick penalty, which is 26 mana on an Iksar. That is 30 + 30 + 26 = 86 mana. A root break also come with potential damage. If you took even 1 hit, you've basically spent the same mana as Paralyzing Earth.

What do you mean by higher mana slow? Aren't we already using Turgur's? And certainly - there will be some fights where lil doggo can't keep aggro. But if in most fights a single 30m root is sufficient, while maybe one in ten requires a second cast - you'll still be far more efficient than going with paralyzing earth.

But, to be clear - I'm not saying it's bad faith to dispute the assumption that root is sufficient. I'm saying that proceeding to calculating numbers while implicitly disputing assumptions is in bad faith - numbers are meaningless without an agreed-upon set of assumptions.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The fight lasts 85 seconds. A Shaman can easily get some DEX gear and buff themselves. At 170 Dex you get 1.5 PPM. An 85 second fight would have have 2 procs on average, which gets halved by JBB. So yes, you would get 1 proc per fight on average.

I know you don't like it when I use the big fancy math words, but unfortunately this is a case where they are necessary. You need to account for the fact procs are memoryless - the likelihood of a proc on any given swing is independent of whether or not any prior swings had a proc. This is a binomial distribution - a series of weighted coin flips. Some fights will have no procs at all, and some fights will have back-to-back procs. Since the proc is a dot, back to back procs are in essence mostly wasted.

I can calculate the expected damage due to procs, but given your past hostility to calculations of expected values, I'm only willing to do so if you're genuinely interested. Off the top of my head, I expect it to end up somewhere between one half and three quarters of the naive calculation.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Finally, Troxx always approaches discussions like this in bad faith, and that is clear from his trolling. You have trolled this thread too. You are not in a position to be judging others.

"So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."

I would never judge another person, nor presume to know what is in their heart. It is the act that I label, and not the person. I am not here to defend Troxx - it is not I to whom he shall have to answer. I try to learn from anyone who has something to teach me, regardless of whatever personal failings they may have. I've learned a ton from you! I bought a PWC and SCHW on your advice, and that served me very well indeed.

If you think I've trolled you, that saddens me, and I can only offer a heartfelt apology, whether or not it is accepted. I feel bad about last night. I made an honest mistake - I thought you said you hadn't deleted and reposted. That made me excited that perhaps I found a bug in the bulletin board software; I'm aware that that may be hard to understand and easy to mock, but to put it in familiar terms I guess it's like stumbling across Quillmane back before the whole idea of placeholders was well understood.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What do you mean by higher mana slow?

I meant root. I didn't realize I said "slow" there instead of root.

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But, to be clear - I'm not saying it's bad faith to dispute the assumption that root is sufficient. I'm saying that proceeding to calculating numbers while implicitly disputing assumptions is in bad faith - numbers are meaningless without an agreed-upon set of assumptions.

I have reposted a simpler version using 1x root because it bothered people using Troxx's precise example, and JBB Shaman still wins:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=445

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I know you don't like it when I use the big fancy math words

I am perfectly fine with you using any math terminology you want. Claiming that I don't like math terminology is just silly, and sounds like an insult. I simply disagree with some of your presumptions with regards to the mathematics of this game, and I am not impressed by the math you have been using thus far.

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you think I've trolled you, that saddens me, and I can only offer a heartfelt apology, whether or not it is accepted. I feel bad about last night. I made an honest mistake - I thought you said you hadn't deleted and reposted. That made me excited that perhaps I found a bug in the bulletin board software; I'm aware that that may be hard to understand and easy to mock, but to put it in familiar terms I guess it's like stumbling across Quillmane back before the whole idea of placeholders was well understood.

Yes, you are clearly a troll at this point based on your pattern of behavior. You are going to need to change how you act before I trust you again.

You have never "QA'ed" the forum before, but all of a sudden decided to use my post to do so. I've never seen someone randomly post a forum bug in a thread either. If you thought it was a bug, you can contact the devs of the forum. It's very suspicious to say the least.

You have a pattern of pushing back on my points, while never pushing back on other people's points. I don't mind the push back, but I find it odd you ignore all of the mathematical flaws in Troxx's post or others posts on a consistent basis. If you were being unbiased and genuinely trying to find the answer to the problem, you should statistically push back on other posters occasionally.

You also reposted a common strawman/lie that other trolls repost: https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=238 . You wouldn't do this if you weren't trolling. There's no reason to post a strawman/lie about another poster.

[Duik]

Yes, you are clearly a troll at this point based on your pattern of behavior. You are going to need to change how you act before I trust you again.

You have never "QA'ed" the forum before, but all of a sudden decided to use my post to do so. I've never seen someone randomly post a forum bug in a thread either. If you thought it was a bug, you can contact the devs of the forum. It's very suspicious to say the least.

You have a pattern of pushing back on my points, while never pushing back on other people's points. I don't mind the push back, but I find it odd you ignore all of the mathematical flaws in Troxx's post or others posts on a consistent basis. If you were being unbiased and genuinely trying to find the answer to the problem, you should statistically push back on other posters occasionally.

Jesus christ.

Mr brown is the most placating human on the boards. Yet you find fault in his approach to you.
He is (could have been before that post) virtually your best friend here.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Duik [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Jesus christ.

Mr brown is the most placating human on the boards. Yet you find fault in his approach to you.
He is (could have been before that post) virtually your best friend here.

Your judgment on character is completely irrelevant, as you are a troll too. At least you have the courtesy to always act like a troll though!

[Jimjam]

Originally Posted by Duik [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

-- Just realised this is iksar specific thread. So no JBB. Ha. Topics get messed up so often its hard to follow sometimes.

One of OP’s concerns was whether being iksar and missing out on JBB would become a severe hamstrung, so jbb talk is valid.