Congratulations Lord Bob

[Uteunayr]

Originally Posted by Tanthallas [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If a guild acts in a way that is against the vast majority of guilds interest, there will be consequences to that guild. If that guild thinks that there will be no consequences because the vast majority of other guilds like to talk about things instead of act upon things, then the vast majority of guilds simply dont deserve to have their positions be dominant.

What you are talking about here is a guild breaking an agreement and killing a dragon that other parties had some pre-arranged deal for. This is not the end of the world. It is one mob. If a guild acts that way, the enforcement mechanism that exists is consequences.

Noone gives a shit about your playstyle if you arent going to fight for your playstyle.

Correct. And now continue reading my post so you realize I actually answered this. But, for the sake of simplicity, I will restate it.

I am not against the idea of players enforcing player made rotations. By all means. And in FFA, that is possible. What Derubael suggests is that we should port up BDA to help zerg and defend compliant guilds who are being opposed by non-compliant guilds, to provide consequences (see? I can bold text too. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]), to those guilds. I describe that the 2-kill lockout makes this an incredibly improbable form of player based enforcement, as the structure they have put on us with this rule has made such a thing unenforceable in this way.

Additionally, the traditional classic EQ form of maintaining a rotation would be through having guilds boycott that guild in terms of ports, rezzes, and the like. And as I said, that enforcement mechanism (offering consequences on the player base for leader's decisions) worked in classic, but cannot work here because to the classic timeline, we're in Planes of Power. There is such a concentration of 60s, that every guild is a self-contained superstructure that can persist without the assistance of the community as a general whole. This is not the fault of the players, it is not even the fault of the developers or the staff. This is a consequence of the fact that we are not in a purely classic experience, and therefore the classic means of delivering consequences to non-compliant guilds are not met.

These two things together are the primary enforcement mechanisms, the first being what Derubael suggested (guilds helping other guilds to enforce player based rotations), but the structure forced down does not permit that on the grounds of having 1-2 people on the list will add to the raid lock out for Class R. Therefore, such consequences cannot exist. And since this server is terribly inflated, it cannot exist in that form.

Believe me, I am all for player agreements being player enforced. My focus of study is on International Relations, and I love the work of Keohane and Nye, Waltz, Wendt, and the rest. I am all for having class R fight for class R play style. But the parts added to the plan make it impossible for that play style to be defended in the way Derubael suggested, or in the classic EQ sense.

If you have another way of delivering consequences (I can think of PvP, but we're blue), by all means share.

[Tanthallas]

Are you seriously trying to argue that the ability to dish out consequences is non-existant here? All of the class R guilds combined who agree on wanting to rotate can easily...EASILY...beat Lord Bob into submission if they actually did something other than post on the forums and change their forum avatars to Jax Teller.

[Man0warr]

This isn't about Class R - but they have already beaten Lord Bob to anything they have attempted during Class R or FFA spawns.

This is a Sky dispute, which the entire server has agreed to.

[Splorf22]

Originally Posted by Derubael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Asking Doljon to play a certain way AT ALL is hypocritical.

Our play-style involves asking them to play our play-style.

[Uteunayr]

Originally Posted by Tanthallas [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Are you seriously trying to argue that the ability to dish out consequences is non-existant here? All of the class R guilds combined who agree on wanting to rotate can easily...EASILY...beat Lord Bob into submission if they actually did something other than post on the forums and change their forum avatars to Jax Teller.

Correct. And I have outlined the two most prominent forms, both of which are not possible either due to structural forces that was added in as a part of sharing around mobs in class R (an admirable goal, but questionable and difficult outcome), or due to the unintentional consequences of this as a classic server in progress that has made it so guilds are incredibly insulated from one another to the point where there is no complex interdependence in the game as there was in classic.

And so I once more emphasize:

Originally Posted by Uteunayr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you have another way of delivering consequences (I can think of PvP, but we're blue), by all means share.

[Heebo]

If I were in Dolj, I'd just join the rotation - learn some encounter mechanics. Then I'd crawfish and drill that ol' devil in the ass.
- Curly Bill Brocius

[Uteunayr]

Originally Posted by Man0warr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This isn't about Class R - but they have already beaten Lord Bob to anything they have attempted during Class R or FFA spawns.

This is a Sky dispute, which the entire server has agreed to.

Correct, which is why I shifted my initial post toward Sky specifically, as the post by Derubael begged for a more general approach to the philosophy and science of political relations between differentiated units.

Sky is a different beast all together, and I partitioned off a section of my post entirely for that. I think that may be what is being missed. I should use bars more often.

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[Uteunayr]

Originally Posted by Heebo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If I were in Dolj, I'd just join the rotation - learn some encounter mechanics. Then I'd crawfish and drill that ol' devil in the ass.
- Curly Bill Brocius

Since I find that it is impossible to edit posts here, I shall toss on yet another, and just say you have a fantastic forum signature. Reminds me of this.

[Erati]

Originally Posted by Man0warr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This isn't about Class R - but they have already beaten Lord Bob to anything they have attempted during Class R or FFA spawns.

This is a Sky dispute, which the entire server has agreed to.

this, if you notice Lord Bob is not even a classified guild.....

Bob is welcome to do their thing. As much as Class R guilds dislike it, and wishes they would take part rather than disrupt, its understandable that we can't 'force' them to do anything they don't want to do.

However, doing what they did in Plane of Sky, when we have had nearly every major guild from BOTH tiers agreeing to a rotation for over a calendar YEAR is unacceptable.

[Heebo]

Originally Posted by Uteunayr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Since I find that it is impossible to edit posts here, I shall toss on yet another, and just say you have a fantastic forum signature. Reminds me of this.

^ This guy gets it.