sk starting points

[Vexenu]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

People can look at the evidence so far that INT is the best starting stat in the posts below:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=300

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=507

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=513

There is NOTHING in any of these posts that makes an actual argument that INT provides an advantage. Your entire argument is that "STR is not really that useful", even though its advantages can be MATHEMATICALLY DEMONSTRATED. In contrast, you cannot even demonstrate a single reasonably plausible scenario in which a well-played SK will benefit from extra INT (you merely offer the vague suggestion that extra mana it may allow for a life-saving FD), much less provide mathematical evidence of the sort that can be furnished in support of STR.

To reiterate:

Originally Posted by Vexenu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

DSM has yet to articulate a compelling argument or provide any actual evidence for his contention that the added mana from 20 INT confers a meaningful advantage for an Iksar SK. His only points are literally, "You should pump INT because it's harder to cap" and "It could theoretically give you enough extra mana to FD and save your life one day". But neither of these statements are logical arguments for pumping INT over STR:

1) CHA is the hardest stat for an SK to cap, so why not pump it? The answer is obvious: because it doesn't confer enough of an advantage to do so. The same logic applies to INT in this case.

2) Pumping INT just because you might one day get off an extra FD from it makes no sense. Theoretically, a lot of things might happen in EQ. Theoretically, extra STR might also make the narrow difference between life and death in some bizarre, highly improbable scenario. Or extra DEX might give you an Epic proc that saves your life. Or extra STA might give you just enough buffer not to die before a CH lands. Because of this, a theoretical argument for INT is no more valid than a theoretical argument for any other stat, most especially STR.

Why? Because STR is the only stat that provides IRREFUTABLE AND CONCRETE benefits both IN and OUT of combat, as has been exhaustively demonstrated in this thread. Whether the precise value is 4 or 5% added DPS is irrelevant, as is how many extra kills this might generate per hour in your tortured examples. The point is that this benefit exists. It is real. You cannot handwave it away. It is a real benefit that can be objectively proven. Added carry weight is also a real, concrete benefit. There is no argument against it. Carrying more weight provides meaningful value. Everyone who has played EQ understands this intuitively.

In contrast, there remains no way to demonstrate any sort of conclusive value from the extra mana provided by INT. SKs do not EVER dump their mana 100-0 in the way that a Wizard, Druid or Cleric regularly does, or the way that another caster might occasionally have need to do. Good SKs spend most of their active playtime hovering between 25% and 75% mana. They leave enough reserve in the tank to account for any emergencies, while ensuring that they don't waste any mana regen by sitting around at full mana. Because of this, adding extra mana on top of their mana pool provides little in the way of value to begin with, and whatever value it does provide simply cannot be accounted for accurately. It's like if your car holds holds enough gasoline to drive 500 miles without filling up, but you never drive more than 50 miles at a time. In this case, expanding your gas tank makes NO SENSE and provides you zero value. And that goes exactly the same for expanding the SK's mana pool by pumping INT in this scenario.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Vexenu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There is NOTHING in any of these posts that makes an actual argument that INT provides an advantage. Your entire argument is that "STR is not really that useful", even though its advantages can be MATHEMATICALLY DEMONSTRATED. In contrast, you cannot even demonstrate a single reasonably plausible scenario in which a well-played SK will benefit from extra INT (you merely offer the vague suggestion that extra mana it may allow for a life-saving FD), much less provide mathematical evidence of the sort that can be furnished in support of STR.

To reiterate:

Throwing a tantrum and dismissing counter evidence (the actual definiton of goalpost moving) is not convincing anyone. Nor is simply proclaming your opinions are superior.

You have yet to provide any math of any kind to show the mathematical superiority you speak of when it comes to STR.

[Vexenu]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Throwing a tantrum and dismissing counter evidence (the actual definiton of goalpost moving) is not convincing anyone. Nor is simply proclaming your opinions are superior.

I want you to quote yourself from those threads and paste excerpts where you actually demonstrate an argument IN FAVOR OF INT. You have never been able to do this. You have just been trying to minimize the importance of STR. You have no actual argument in favor of INT. Saying that "STR is overrated" is not the same thing as saying "Here is the evidence that INT is the stat worth pumping instead of any other."

And reminder: Saying that INT should be pumped just because it is harder to cap than STR is NOT an argument. You have to actually demonstrate the value of the added INT, otherwise we might as well be pumping CHA.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You have yet to provide any math of any kind to show the mathematical superiority you speak of when it comes to STR.

Troxx and others have conclusively demonstrated the 4-5% DPS increase. Increased carry weight is self-evidently proven.

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by Vexenu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There is NOTHING in any of these posts that makes an actual argument that INT provides an advantage. Your entire argument is that "STR is not really that useful", even though its advantages can be MATHEMATICALLY DEMONSTRATED. In contrast, you cannot even demonstrate a single reasonably plausible scenario in which a well-played SK will benefit from extra INT (you merely offer the vague suggestion that extra mana it may allow for a life-saving FD), much less provide mathematical evidence of the sort that can be furnished in support of STR.

Bingo!

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[Troxx]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Two posters agreed with me regarding INT on page 1 of this thread,

Before any discussion took place.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Before any discussion took place.

Thanks for admitting your troll failed. It is quite a common occurence. You can't even bother to read the thread.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Vexenu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Troxx and others have conclusively demonstrated the 4-5% DPS increase. Increased carry weight is self-evidently proven.

The 4-5% DPS increase was provided exclusively by my data, multiple posts of it lol. Troxx and "other posters" did nothing. You dismiss my data, and then use it. Amazing.

I think this shows you are so willing to try and disprove me, you cannot even bother to read the thread.

I can also show plenty of scenarios using popular camps where the 4-5% DPS boost is providing nothing. No extra kills per hour, no significant amount of extra downtime.

Carry weight is always nice, but you do not need 255 STR on a character to carry everything you need, including FS weapons and coin. You can easily get 170ish STR on an Iksar, and buy WR bags. I've leveled under 200 STR on two melee characters so far just fine.

Originally Posted by Vexenu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

And reminder: Saying that INT should be pumped just because it is harder to cap than STR is NOT an argument. You have to actually demonstrate the value of the added INT, otherwise we might as well be pumping CHA.

Simply claiming something is not an argument... is not an argument lol. You cannot simply claim anything you disagree with isn't valid. CHA is only situationally useful on an SK since their lulls are undead only. INT is always helping.

[Vexenu]

I am still awaiting a positive argument in favor of INT. You continue merely to discount STR.

We get it by now. DSM thinks that STR reaches diminishing returns around 170.

Let's assume that you somehow managed to convince us that STR is overrated (you haven't, but let's assume). You now need to go ahead and convince us to pump INT at creation instead of STA, DEX or even CHA. "Because it's harder to cap" is not an argument. You need to make a logical argument and/or provide evidence that INT provides a tangible return for non-raiding Iksar SK that is at least comparable to that of STR (+4% DPS, additional carrying capacity) STA (extra HP/increased CH buffer) or DEX (more procs).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Vexenu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

"Because it's harder to cap" is not an argument.

This is the core flaw with your thought process. You are falsely claiming that stat caps and statistical distributions of stats on gear are not a valid part of the conversation.

I am not sure how you think I can satisfy you when your basic premises are factually incorrect.

[Vexenu]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is the core flaw with your thought process. You are falsely claiming that stat caps and statistical distributions of stats on gear are not a valid part of the conversation.

I am not sure how you think I can satisfy you when your basic premises are factually incorrect.

Let's say you have a 20 gallon gas tank in your car, and yet you spend 95% of your active drive time with the tank filled between 5 and 15 gallons.

That being the case, what practical value would you receive from spending money to upgrade to a 21 gallon tank?