Enchanter charm isn't classic, we all know this

[loramin]

Originally Posted by cd288 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Then go find evidence for it and I'm sure the staff will change things. Otherwise it's a pointless discussion.

The evidence is that IT'S NOT LIKE 1999!!! That's all the evidence we need. AGAIN, with Bards every last piece of existing evidence said "Bards can AoE 100 mobs and take all of OT".

But the even more important evidence was "BARDS DIDN'T DO THAT IN 1999!" AoEing every mob in OT was unclassic, and that was all Nilbog needed to go looking for the mechanic he was missing.

The exact same thing is true here. We have mountains of evidence, all correct and arguing Enchanters should be the most powerful DPS class in EverQuest. And then we have even more important evidence that says they weren't even in the top five on any server (out of the many, each with thousands of players, that existed back then). 1 + 1 =2, and shit's not classic.

And the only way you can argue that it should be that way is if you think every Enchanter back then was too stupid to try using their spells. That's not an honest argument, that's a "please don't classically nerf my class because it's my class" argument.

[bwe]

These enchanters just want to continue monopolizing cash camps, don't hurt their source of income

[Tecmos Deception]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So, we can yell at each other about how we're right, or we can try and walk in another man's moccasins.

I've set the scene already. It's 1999: we've got class message boards, and literally hundreds of members of every class is playing the game, casting spells, trying things out, and posting about what they've done so hundreds of other players can do the same.

In this environment every class is figuring out how to use their tools. Rogues are learning what they can pickpocket and how to use sneak cleverly, Shaman are cann-dancing, and so on.

Now, imagine in this environment you play an Enchanter. You have a spell list, and you know every spell on it and what it does (even if you didn't have the manual and Prima guides and such, you had Caster's Realm and other sites back then that listed them all).

So what is your argument?

That Enchanters didn't look at Charm on their list?

That every Enchanter on the server cast it once, and decided, this is crap?

How can you honestly imagine every one of the hundreds of forum-posting Enchanters NOT realizing that they could do more damage than any other class in the entire game?

I'd say, you can't. You can't honestly wave all this away as "every last one of them was" dumb. Something HAD to be different back then.

Chanters did solo with charm for exp on live.

That's not the same thing as having figured out how to use a buffed, dual wielding, malod, -mr geared imp while you have a wc cap and root nets and a wand of allure and a telescope on your hotbar so you can duo freeti in relative safety for hours on end.

Nobody is saying they were dumb back then. There's a difference between being dumb and having enough play time to piece together all the parts of the puzzle. And either nobody did that very quickly, or if anyone did it they didn't talk about it so thoroughly and frequently that became widely known.

[Lojik]

GCD wasn't very widely known on live was it, along with recharging? How much of an effect on enchanters pwning camps would there be if these were removed?

[Vizax_Xaziv]

Originally Posted by Ligma [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Both were just massive zone disruptions that the staff didn't want to deal with anymore

I would submit that charm-soloing Enchanters monopolizing content is ALSO "zone disruption."

[Tecmos Deception]

Originally Posted by Lojik [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

GCD wasn't very widely known on live was it, along with recharging? How much of an effect on enchanters pwning camps would there be if these were removed?

A lot.

When a stun or a mez or anything resists and you have to wait 2.5 extra seconds before you can try again, when you can't refresh your top gem instantly? And then you're eating your monster pet's dps and whatever else you were trying to handle too?

And in context, that's just one of the several things that make an enormous difference on here that were used by almost no one on live.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Tecmos Deception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Chanters did solo with charm for exp on live.

That's not the same thing as having figured out how to use a buffed, dual wielding, malod, -mr geared imp while you have a wc cap and root nets and a wand of allure and a telescope on your hotbar so you can duo freeti in relative safety for hours on end.

Nobody is saying they were dumb back then. There's a difference between being dumb and having enough play time to piece together all the parts of the puzzle. And either nobody did that very quickly, or if anyone did it they didn't talk about it so thoroughly and frequently that became widely known.

Tecmos I give you props. You're actively trying to engage with me, you're giving (small, but reasonable) ground on your argument, and I know that there's probably not a single more "Pro-Enchanter" player on this entire server. I know that if anyone has a reason to be intellectually dishonest in their defense of Enchanters it would be you, but I can feel you trying not to be (and I also know how much you appreciate this place and it's mission), and I genuinely respect you for it.

But look, we've gone from "Enchanters were too stupid to charm" to "Enchanters totally charmed all the time, but they just couldn't optimize it". That's a huge leap from where we started, but I have to try and pick at your rational/logical side some more.

The core of my argument is "Enchanters weren't even a DPS class on live, but they are the best DPS class here; unless that can be explained entirely through player ignorance, the only other explanation is that this emulation of 1999 EverQuest isn't emulating it well enough."

So let's engage with the "explained entirely through player ignorance" part. Just so we're clear, you're arguing that a "nekid" (or at least classically geared) Enchanter on Green can't charm solo effectively? I'm not talking about being the best DPS in the game necessarily, but are you saying they can't even be very effective DPS without -mr gear, an insta-click item, etc.?

I think the evidence suggests they can. So again, what's different between Green and Live, if it's not the knowledge of all those other items (that aren't essential to the core act of using charm), and it's not the server mechanics?

[Ligma]

I would submit you're just mad/bad

[Cuktus]

Originally Posted by Vizax_Xaziv [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I would submit that charm-soloing Enchanters monopolizing content is ALSO "zone disruption."

Wholly hell am I doing this wrong. Please tell me how to solo 100 mobs every 10min on a chanter please. I am clearly doing this wrong.

Edit: a word

[Tecmos Deception]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Tecmos I give you props. You're actively trying to engage with me, you're giving (small, but reasonable) ground on your argument, and I know that there's probably not a single more "Pro-Enchanter Class" player on this entire server. I know that if anyone has a reason to be intellectually dishonest in their defense of Enchanters it would be you, but I can feel you trying not to be and I genuinely respect it.

But look, we've gone from "Enchanters were too stupid to charm" to "Enchanters totally charmed all the time, but they just couldn't optimize it". That's a huge leap from where we started, but I have to try and pick at your rational/logical side some more.

The core of my argument is "Enchanters weren't even a DPS class on live, but they are the best DPS class here; unless that can be explained entirely through player ignorance, the only other explanation is that this emulation of 1999 EverQuest isn't emulating it well enough."

So let's engage with the "explained entirely through player ignorance" part. Just so we're clear, you're arguing that a "nekid" (or at least classically geared) Enchanter on Green can't charm solo effectively? I'm not talking about being the best DPS in the game necessarily, but are you saying they can't even be very effective DPS without -mr gear, insta-click item, etc.?

I think the evidence suggests they can. So again, what's different between Green and Live, if it's not the knowledge of all those other items, and it's not the server mechanics?

Well I like to think that I try to be reasonable even about issues close to my heart, lol. Though like I've mentioned lately, I'm not playing a chanter any more and have no plans to!

That aside, I don't think I've argued that players were dumb (unless maybe tongue in cheeck while meaning that they just hadn't had enough playtime to figure it all out yet), nor that everyone was charming on live. Consider me as a chanter. I played on live as my main. I played for years on P99 without doing one. I never ever knew they could do solo artist challenge type stuff until I saw the SAC and started Tecmos to follow in Save and Loraen's footsteps. I never figured out HS south until they showed me. I spent hundreds of hours soloing with Tecmos (blue), Tecmos (red), and Noman, but was still improving on my methods in my final streams I did with Noman after 6 years of nonstop chanting, 95% solo, on p99. I had to learn lev trick, corpsing keys, gnoming through doors, -mr gear for pets, even basic spell gem setup, I had to learn the best way to do all those things from other people. I never figured those things out all on my own. I'm not ever going to claim I'm the best chanter or the best player, but I like to think I'm pretty damn good when I want to be. And in 6 years I never pieced together even 1/4 of the stuff I would have needed to make the videos like I did in HS south/east, seb, etc. Is it a stretch to think that there weren't dozens of chanters who pieced this all together in only 3 years of classic era on live?


Regarding the second half of your post though, just a day or two ago I challenged the people claiming that charm couldn't have worked this well on live to play a chanter on blue like it would have been in classic on p99 and see if charm still feels like it trivializes content and is easy to do.

I would LOVE to see someone playing with randomized 1-2/hr link deaths, no GCD clicky, no -mr gear, no malaise on pet, who ocassionally chain stuns NPCs and nukes, also try to charm one of these DPS monstrosities everyone keeps saying chanters can control here but couldn't on live.

I know what's going to happen.