Shamen Vs. Druids as Soloers

[Taluvill]

Originally Posted by kenzar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Negative, the mob will interrupt its casting and immediately try to reach LoS. If its rooted it just stops casting until you enter LoS again. So as long as your cast time was < the mobs cast time, you shouldnt ever get hit.

This was exactly my point when I was talking with Jeremy about it.

Now, in theory it seems like it would work... But saying shit is a lot easier than actually doing it. I will probably go try in full resist gear in a few days or so, but it's half suicide, because if you get a bad root break, your fucked. He'll chain stun you so hard you wont be able to move.

It's definitely plausible on paper.

I do tend to agree with Jeremy though.
Soloing Indoors>> Shaman.
Soloing outdoors>>>Druid.
Take away the Shamans pet? We're on damn near equal footing indoors I do believe, if only because most strats we'd use are the same, and snare really doesn't change a whole lot indoors, other than a few more seconds of reaction time. Malo just makes a shamans life easier, and a shamans slow is just like a druids snare indoors, a few seconds more of reaction time, because I don't see a shaman meleeing down a mob in Lguk. And Jeremy, Yes, you are an exception.

Edit: Most mobs you want to farm are indoors. This is true. In Kunark, a lot of things are indoors, but zones like Karnors (IIRC, dont hate) and CoM are outdoors, where a druids stuns and other useful spells will work. Kunark+Druid is a lot more viable than you'd imagine Jeremy, although I know you haven't played it before.

Double Edit @ Ax: Ax, you wouldn't ever Root/Rot the Ghoul Arch-Magi, unless you want to 13 dmg a tick dot him to death. Things like Drifting death and Drones, and even Immolate I believe have a cast time that is MUCH too high to try and combat his cast time with. What ou would do, is load an older DD like Combust, and just root/nuke the fuck out of him. He is placed in a hallway, and you would snare/root and play the corners effectively IMO. Get a Drifting off if you can manage, but I think he would cast IMMEDIATELY when he sees you, and a computers reaction time is Instant.

[quido]

Slow affects attack speed.
Snare affects run speed.

A bard "slow" is both, but for shamans and druids, it only affects the one.

Take away the pet and we're almost on equal footing (Shamans still have much better DoTs and can Cannibalize and shit) but why the hell would you take away the pet? I have my pet up every time I'm soloing. And he's usually raid buffed =)

Take away a druid's XXXXXX and they suck!

Also, I take back what I say about AM being one of the most resistant mobs in Guk. I contend that he is the most resistant mob in Guk.

[Taluvill]

All im saying is that the pet really is what changes the game for you in the end. Canni, and even rage helps with the regen of mana, not exactly during the fight. So they are moreso efficiency spells. They make a big difference, sure, but per fight basis are completely null and void.

Snare effects run speed, and it gives you a few seconds of "Oh shit hes coming over here!!"

Slow effects attack speed, so he doesn't rip into you immediately, and it helps you get another cast off(root).

Edit: In essence, slow/snare do the same thing... just buy you more time.

[quido]

Saying Rage saves me some mana is an understatement. Rage not only saves me a shitload of mana by eliminating most of my need to heal, but it also can add to my mana by allowing more Cannibalize/Manastone. I don't think you realize the regen we get out of Rage; it is a ridiculous amount. I regen over 40 life a tick sitting. It's almost as much standing. So you can't really say it doesn't play a role in each fight. Rage helps me the whole time I have it up (which is always). And without your manastone - something most people don't have - that small amount of regen you do actually get from inherent and chloro does you no good once your health is full!

There are the shaman debuffs too. We have the best slow in the game (70%). That is a LOT of saved damage if I'm going to stand there and tank or let my pet tank. You can't really say that snare and slow do the same thing since snare does almost nothing indoors. Outdoors I'd rather have the snare usually, yeah, but when am I killing things outdoors? Rarely. Malosi is an incredible spell (minus 60 to ALL resists). Sometimes when my Ebolt (which does 1132 damage in 42 seconds) isn't doing full damage on a poison resistant mob, Malosi will put it to full. If I really want to be cool I'll throw Incapacitate into the mix.

Pets are part of the shaman class. You can't really say "well the pet is what sets you apart." Yes, it does further set us apart. The pet is what sets necros and mages apart. "Well, enchanter, you really aren't shit without charm and lull and mezz!" You just can't say something like that and expect it to stand as valid. "Well casters wouldn't be shit without mana!!!!"

[azxten]

Originally Posted by quido [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

does you no good once your health is full!

Thorns. Easily adds hundreds of damage to a fight just from root breaks, etc. Very mana efficient damage.

That is a LOT of saved damage if I'm going to stand there and tank or let my pet tank.

Druids don't tank so it's kind of silly to compare. Which leads to...

You can't really say that snare and slow do the same thing since snare does almost nothing indoors.

Actually it does a lot indoors. Your snare slows a mob 70% and reduces damage, what does snare and running down a hallway so you don't get hit at all for 5-10 seconds save? You can even snare and run back and forth in a tiny ass room and it's still a definite reduction in damage especially if you're smart and time it so you run right as the next melee attack is about to go off.

You can't really say "well the pet is what sets you apart."

Yeah he can, it's really the only reason you're better at soloing indoors. You might be able to kill faster indoors than Druids since we can't quad but it doesn't make you better at soloing. That's his point. Wow, great you can regen your mana blah blah blah. Who cares when it's 30 mins to the next respawn? All that really comes into play is how many mobs you can handle at the same time to break a spawn.

So, Druids can get to 50 faster with less actual playtime required (long meds between kites). They can port between multiple camps easily and bind at specific camps while leaving to do other stuff with no real time investment moving around. They have track to check zones for named mobs easily. Don't underestimate track. Just a couple days ago I ported into NK and hit track and got a werewolf medallion which I sold for 1k. Took me literally 5 seconds of work while on the way to doing something else. Shaman would have no idea it was up. Shaman can handle more mobs in a specific camp, regen mana faster if quick recovery is required, and whatever else.

My point is.. this discussion is stupid and I'm not sure why I'm posting here still. You make a big deal about not being able to claim the shaman pet sets them apart but you simultaneously refuse to acknowledge Druid's travel ability in terms of soloing mobs. Druids can cover a shitload of camps and especially rare mob camps, roamers, etc while Shaman is stuck picking a camp. Oh and in addition to that.. Shamen are ugly and they smell bad.

[Eternal-Elf]

forget shaman and druid.......

GO WIZARD!

[Weekapaug]

To the OP....I quit reading closely after about the 3rd "my classes' cock is bigger than yours" post but if you read back through all of this there is good info in this thread, especially the stuff about indoor versus outdoor. I wouldn't pay too much attention to the bickering, though. Both are great classes both for soloing and grouping...Loving your class and playing it well are more important than class choice IMO....I played a shaman live into the 70s as well as another to 50....My first druid past 20 is here on P99 and is my highest toon so far here, at 40. I love the shaman and I love the druid both.

My answer to your question: It depends on what you want to do and how you like to play.

First, the simple stuff...Druids regen mana the old fashioned way, by sitting. Shaman regen mana by cannibalizing and creating mana. Canni means that shaman will recover much faster on a kill-by-kill basis. This means that Shaman will kill faster overall, which means they will be more effective in tight spots (i.e. indoors). But canni requires work. You have to cast it, sit, cast, sit, etc to get the most bang out of it. Canni rules. But if you are the kind of soloer that likes to kill a mob and afk to do the dishes, watch tv, etc in between kills, the downtime of the druid may be better suited to your tastes. Also consider that to balance out Cannibalize, shaman spells tend to require more mana to do the same things. It's still a siginificant advantage that Shamans have, but like everything in EQ has downsides. Canni isn't just an advantage for shamans...it's pretty much required for them to run optimally, so if cast/sit/cast/sit during your downtime rather than being able to afk is a factor, bear all of that in mind.

That, to me, is really the big thing....how you would prefer your downtime to be and if you are soloing for easy kills outdoors or for the challenge of soloing indoors. BTW, despite what some other posters say, Kunark brings lots of outdoor soloing opportunities with it including good drops....But it's dungeons are awesome as well.

Some other random thoughts to consider that I don't think have come up in the thread....

Not all dots are the same. Shaman get some big beefy ones, but the main lines are poison and disease based, and there's an aoe line that can be stacked on top of them as well as the epic dot, assuming you get it...In a practical sense, at any given time you will have 2 maybe 3 dots you can stack. With the exception of the epic dot, as far as I recall all shaman dots have a DD component to them, which means they are likely to break root more often. Druids main line of dots are magic based with no DD component (they dont break root) AND they all stack with all the others within that line. This is pretty awesome (and the biggest most pleasant surprise I've had playing the class, honestly) because by being magic based, they tend to not be resisted. At all. By anything. I think I've had a magic based druid dot (the fire ones are another story) resisted by mobs maybe a handful of times at this point, and I've played around with kiting crap 10-15 levels higher than me at times. Even if you cant stick a snare on something you can still dot and haul ass...If you are well geared and have Clarity. I was in average gear at the time, but with a fresh clarity I soloed the HG in North Karana at level 24 or 25 with my druid. It took 20-25 mins and I had to run for my life the whole time but I did it. I've found since that if a mob can be snared and there is room to kite, I can pretty much kill it, regardless of level. All of that said, I'm pretty sure the shaman dots pack a bit more of a punch later on, but I'm not entirely sure about that.

Shamans will kill things and recover faster but they also have to be a race with an experience pentalty. On the flip side of that, those large races that they all have to be (eventually iksars are added but they aren't large) all get racial Slam, which is basicly like a free chance to interrupt a caster if you are in melee range and it refreshes just like shield Bash. Trolls get the worst exp penalty in the game but they also get racial regen that stacks with items and spell regen.

Druids are much easier to gear up (my druid is 200 wis untwinked at 40 and the only significant piece of gear I have is a PKT which I got lucky with the drop on running thru dagnors one night) and the races they can be have higher starting wisdom. Shamans can make mana with Canni, but until they get amazing gear they tend to have a smaller mana pool (and spells that require more mana). My 200 wis druid also takes 10 mins 37 seconds to regen a full bar of mana (8:52 with clarity) at level 40. That could be a good or bad thing depending on how you play.

A couple of the druid races get racial hide. I LOVE my hide on my druid. You can kite something, hide, and afk for as long as you want, knowing that you are pretty much safe...couple this with long duration wolf form and the self buff and all you have to do is kite something and hide between afks.

I enjoy soloing. I enjoy raiding. I play EQ to group, ultimately. If this is a factor, bear in mind that in all 3 of those areas, the druid increasingly takes a backseat to other classes in most respects. It really is a jack-of-all trades class ultimately. Shamans get increasingly better in addition to being THE buffers and THE slowers.

When I solo with my druid, I miss slow, good buffs and canni. When I solo with my shaman I miss snare, ds, track. Playing a porting class spoils you, it goes without saying.

When I solo my druid I feel like I own the outdoors...I've felt this way on my bards also. When you play your shaman you will, at some point, feel like superman.

All in all, I feel that the druid gets better utility than the shaman does. But I feel that the shaman is overall more effective.

I play a 21 shaman here with my girlfriend's necro and I decided the other day that it's seriously in danger of becoming my main toon here. On that very same day I told her something like "If there is ever another classic server, please smack me in the side of the head if I start with any class other than a druid." I'm a melee-dps/bard at heart, with priests/healers coming in a close second, if that offers any perspective on my tastes. It's really hard to beat that druid utility, but I know in my heart that the shaman is probably the better choice for main character in the long haul past original classic-era.

Figure out what's best for you....indoors vs outdoors, root/rot vs kiting, long med times vs canni. Is this toon purely for solo or do you plan to group/raid also? Is it your main?

It's really a matter of what you want to do and how you want to play.

[baub]

downtime, ports, track

vs

no downtime, versatility, god mode

the only problem with sham outdoor soloing is running out of shit to kill

thats pretty much what it comes down to sir, not sure about ogre though, real men wear kilts!

[Estu]

The huge downtimes for druids are really what caught me by surprise, having woken up and read all the replies here. Big downtimes really leave a bad taste in my mouth, especially after playing WoW, where soloing some classes you get 0 downtime and soloing others you get like 30 seconds to a minute at most. That's one thing WoW really does better than EQ (unless EQ does it purely to motivate grouping) - a game forcing you to wait 10 minutes between fights, even if you're taking down multiple mobs, is doing something VERY wrong. I was expecting more downtime for druids to be sure, but 10 minutes (I understand this is an upper bound, but even 5 minutes is ridiculous)? It sounds like a parody of an MMO! I've been swinging back and forth a bit through this thread between druid and shaman, but those ridiculous downtimes have finally pushed me definitively to the shaman. If I am looking to play something with big downtimes between fights, I'll consider leveling my druid or wizard, but for now, looks like the shaman's going to be my main. Thanks for the input, everyone.

[Overcast]

To sum it up - in my mind.. .

The Shaman's good in tighter quarters, but reallys needs all those buffs to do best. In a group, they will be buffing like mad and medding a lot. Canni will make a big difference, but need to get there first, of course.

Druid's insane in open/outdoor areas, very efficient. With ports, if one area's too packed, you can be at another in minutes. In a group, you just have the skin line, maybe STR, and DS to keep up. So you can toss a bit more DPS and keep things snared. If you need a clarity just run to EC and you can probably get one for a donation. Shaman may have a bit more STR, but the druid can bind at their hunting spot, zip off to a druid ring to sell, gate back and it's on again.

In terms of raw speed, a druid is a great PL'er - DS and heals. Enough said. The shaman, with the array of buffs will get those skills up fast for the person being leveled. But will be a bit slower, overall as 'free DS dmg' isn't there.

Personally, I went shaman too - but after 80 levels / 500+ AA's of Necro-ing, I'm not up to kiting.