Enchanter charm isn't classic, we all know this

[Dolalin]

Having done some reading on the subject, I don't think there's anything wrong with the enchanter charm charisma score check per se, rather I think the issue is that mobs on P99 have lower magic resistance than they did in classic.

I see lots of complaining about spell resists in the newsgroups and I feel as though we don't see those levels of resists here on P99.

Enchanter charm does a MR check every tick to break. This would neatly explain why it's so powerful here.

Have a look at this post from just after EQ launch:

4/24/99

After casting Tashan successfully (Tashan itself is often resisted) I
have still had several instances of having my spells resisted by
white/blue MOBs. It's getting pretty embarrassing, when I waste half
of my mana making a nice spell animations, and causing no damage at
all.

--
Stopped Clock stoppe...@hotmail.com
"You talk better than you fool." -- Homer Simpson

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt....s/8NeG3tgdBsQJ

Oh and that's another non-classic thing actually... Tashan wasn't a lure-type spell until May 1999 and the GZ enchanter retune.

[strawman]

Originally Posted by Dolalin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

After casting Tashan successfully (Tashan itself is often resisted) I
have still had several instances of having my spells resisted by
white/blue MOBs. It's getting pretty embarrassing, when I waste half
of my mana making a nice spell animations, and causing no damage at
all.

With the reference to "causing damage" it sounds like this poster in particular is referring to the Chaotic Feedback line, which absolutely does resist 25-40% of the time on p99 (as I recall this is because it's a stun resist check, not an MR check)

[nicemace]

one thing that needs to be considered is that during classic no one knew wtf was going on. like the skill level and knowledge about the game was minimal. with time people grew to understand the strengths of certain things like charm, once it was obvious how strong things were it started to get nerfed, such as exp from pet kills during POP.

i think you will find charm was strong in classic but we now have people who have 2 DECADES of playing experience and know how to use it to maximum benefit.

[Neric]

Back in the day I had charms break rather early as a low level, then at 50 it felt somewhat more reliable. I thought it had something to do with having CHA 200, but then I found out that this stat was more or less broken. So I guess there is a huge random factor built in.

[Fammaden]

Another old guy who played in era here. I've been saying the same thing ever since starting on blue as well. Back then ench's were not seen as any solo powerhouse, they were mostly a grouping class, and they were expected to mez and buff mostly maybe slow. If a chanter came into a group on my server back then saying they were going to charm a blue mob for extra dps they would have been told to fuck off and stop trying to get everyone killed.

Obviously no one knows the code from 1999 - 2001 so what the fuck we gonna do? I believe that bleeding edge guilds probably did use charm on early AoW kills and all but that's not the average gameplay or indicative of how reliable charming was for leveling.

[slowpoke68]

Yes and Enchanters were not very common. It was a treat when you got one in your group. I agree with the above poster. They were still a great class and highly valued, but charming just didn't happen.

In fact I remember the one and only time I ever saw a chanter use charm in classic. We were at the spawn that dropped the FBSS and the shit it the fan. We were headed for a wipe and the chanter charmed a mob and turned the tide.

I said wow that was great, why don't you do that all the time. He said it is way too dangerous and unreliable and only did it because things couldn't get any worse.

So anecdotal I know, but anyone who thinks chanters are ok being the best utility caster and the best dps and that was how it was in classic are nuts.

I hate it because it trivializes the content, and if I wanted that I would play some current mmo instead of going back to a 20 year old game.

[Vexenu]

The problem with saying, "Just find evidence for charm being OP and they will fix it!" is that it's impossible to find evidence for something that did not exist! In other words, you aren't going to find a lot of searchable evidence related to charm being powerful, because it wasn't, so people simply didn't talk about it. It's the same situation with combat bind wound, which is also terribly unclassic. You can't search and find anything that explicitly says, "You cannot bind wound during combat." Why is that? Because mechanically you simply could not, and there was no reason to even talk about it as a possibility. You can read dozens of melee player guides from the classic era and none will mention combat bind wound. This a shocking omission for such an overpowered ability, and its total absence from the historical record should be overwhelming evidence that it did NOT exist in the classic era.

Charm is in the same position. Charm on P1999 is so shockingly overpowered that there is no way not to notice it. In fact, it is so overpowered that it basically defines the class at this point. If you join a group as an Enchanter and don't charm a pet, people on P1999 will (rightfully) regard you as a bad player, because you aren't using all your class tools. The obvious question then becomes: if charm was the same back in the classic era, why wasn't it viewed the same way it is on P1999? Why weren't Enchanters regarded as far and away the most OP class in the game? Why wasn't charm equated with the class and mentioned in every single post and guide? Isn't it obvious that would have been the case?

It's simply nonsense to regard classic-era players as idiots who didn't understand how to play the game. I repeat: these are the same players who solved every quest in the game and parsed logs endlessly to figure out all sorts of combat formulas. The idea that they simply overlooked the entire charm spell line and wrote it off as worthless is idiotic. Further, the idea that the dev team of the time, had charm been as OP as it is on P1999, would NOT have nerfed the shit out of charm is also ridiculous. Necros specifically had their pets nerfed because they were OP. And an Enchanter with P1999 Charm can do much more than a classic-era Necro with an OP pet.

P1999 Enchanters would literally have you believe that players and devs 20 years ago were too stupid to cast the charm spell and didn't understand simple and obvious charm tactics like using color stuns and keeping maximum distance from charm pets. Newflash: you P1999 Enchanters are not raging geniuses compared to classic-era players. You have no new insights. You are simply taking advantage of broken mechanics that were unavailable back then, performing ridiculously overpowered feats and then claiming your player skill is the difference rather than absurdly OP charm that trivializes content.

[nicemace]

the thing is charm never really got nerfed until POP and I can say with certainty that ench's were charming in POP (which lead to the nerf). soloing we would be doing an AA every 1-2 mins. people have just taken that knowledge and started using it earlier.

[korzax]

So lets compare enc's in pop, when everyone knew they were op with quad damage mobs, and classic when everyone knew they were shitty at charm. Charm got better with AA's

[nicemace]

Originally Posted by Vexenu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's simply nonsense to regard classic-era players as idiots who didn't understand how to play the game.

sorry but that was the case. it's the same reason why we can't recreate the the same feeling of playing as back in the days. its a fact that no one knew wtf they were doing. that is what created the world that we viewed with wonder back then because we didn't know the best exp spots, the ZEM's etc. there is zero doubt that back then we were not playing the game optimally.

Originally Posted by Vexenu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You have no new insights. You are simply taking advantage of broken mechanics that were unavailable back then, performing ridiculously overpowered feats and then claiming your player skill is the difference rather than absurdly OP charm that trivializes content.

how many shamans did you see soloing frenzy, lord etc in classic? not many. how many do you see now? plenty. shaman is known as one of the strongest solo classes. it sure as shit wasn't back in the day. what's your explanation ?