Occupy Wall Street - Success

[Shiftin]

Originally Posted by Aadill [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

*eradicate many of the tax loopholes that currently exist except for standard deductions for individuals/families and standard corporate deductions WHEN APPROPRIATE (I believe there is currently a percentage deduction available). These deductions set a fairly hard line for determining benefit to tax ratios. They are currently off as had been mentioned in another post on these boards in the sense that if you make less than $54k/year you're sucking money out of the system more than you're contributing. With this I would say, lower the standard deductions and rescale the tax code or remove the deductions altogether.

I listened to a senior tax partner at a big 4 firm talk on this a couple weeks ago. I'm also a CPA w/ a masters, etc. Believe me when I say that:

This is maniacally stupid and would eviscerate the economy. First, you people have to quit using the word loophole when you mean "tax expenditure" (things written into the tax code which reduce tax revenue collected either by deduction or credit). These are deductions or tax incentives put in place to encourage a specific behavior. You can't be against government encouraging behaviors it deems good through tax law in one breath and advocate huge tax credits for bringing jobs back from overseas in the next, because the principal is the same.

Do you realize what would happen to the real estate, construction, and countless related industries if you removed the mortgage interest deduction (the thirdlargest by overall dollar impact to individual tax revenue)?
They would collapse, almost immediately. Millions upon millions of people would lose their jobs.

I'm pretty sure the top tax expenditure, exclusions for employer-provided health care and insurance, isn't going away. Maybe you want to remove the second biggest in allowing people to put away pre-tax dollars for retirement? Yeah, let's quit incentivizing people to save for their own retirements, I can't see any long term negative effects from that.

After the top 6 or 7 tax expenditures, they to become immaterial on both an individual level and in aggregate to the budget. Removing things put in place to encourage behaviors we deem as a society to be good, either on a moral, environmental or economic level is not how you "fix" the budget or tax code. It's how you further screw the economy.

On the corporate side, the top three things the current administration identified as loopholes, if eliminated completely, only saves 130 billion total over 10 years (not time value adjusted). That's NOTHING.

The tax loophole stuff is talking point nonsense from people who don't actually understand the tax code and the federal budget. I know you're smarter than that, and people who do understand them aren't going to take you seriously if you're leading arguments with idealistic contradictory points which show a lack of understanding of the subject matter. I realize there aren't many people like me as a percentage of the popluation, and you're not really reaching out to us in the first place, but it makes my head explode.

[pickled_heretic]

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[pickled_heretic]

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this sign makes me sad =/

[Klath]

As long as we're posting funny Tea Party signs...

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[pickled_heretic]

Originally Posted by Shiftin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I listened to a senior tax partner at a big 4 firm talk on this a couple weeks ago. I'm also a CPA w/ a masters, etc. Believe me when I say that:

This is maniacally stupid and would eviscerate the economy. First, you people have to quit using the word loophole when you mean "tax expenditure" (things written into the tax code which reduce tax revenue collected either by deduction or credit). These are deductions or tax incentives put in place to encourage a specific behavior. You can't be against government encouraging behaviors it deems good through tax law in one breath and advocate huge tax credits for bringing jobs back from overseas in the next, because the principal is the same.

Do you realize what would happen to the real estate, construction, and countless related industries if you removed the mortgage interest deduction (the thirdlargest by overall dollar impact to individual tax revenue)?
They would collapse, almost immediately. Millions upon millions of people would lose their jobs.

I'm pretty sure the top tax expenditure, exclusions for employer-provided health care and insurance, isn't going away. Maybe you want to remove the second biggest in allowing people to put away pre-tax dollars for retirement? Yeah, let's quit incentivizing people to save for their own retirements, I can't see any long term negative effects from that.

After the top 6 or 7 tax expenditures, they to become immaterial on both an individual level and in aggregate to the budget. Removing things put in place to encourage behaviors we deem as a society to be good, either on a moral, environmental or economic level is not how you "fix" the budget or tax code. It's how you further screw the economy.

On the corporate side, the top three things the current administration identified as loopholes, if eliminated completely, only saves 130 billion total over 10 years (not time value adjusted). That's NOTHING.

The tax loophole stuff is talking point nonsense from people who don't actually understand the tax code and the federal budget. I know you're smarter than that, and people who do understand them aren't going to take you seriously if you're leading arguments with idealistic contradictory points which show a lack of understanding of the subject matter. I realize there aren't many people like me as a percentage of the popluation, and you're not really reaching out to us in the first place, but it makes my head explode.

SC johnson hasn't paid corporate tax in the last 9 years despite reporting corporate profits in the billions. you can take your "informational seminar," and shove it right up your asshole. thx

[pickled_heretic]

General Electric, the nation’s largest corporation, had a very good year in 2010

The company reported worldwide profits of $14.2 billion, and said $5.1 billion of the total came from its operations in the United States.

Its American tax bill? None. In fact, G.E. claimed a tax benefit of $3.2 billion.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/25/bu...XXOQXQAqGQJV6g

U WOULDNT UNDERSTAND THIS IS GOOD FOR UR ECONOMY I ATTENDED AN INFORMATIONAL SEMINAR THAT TOLD ME SO

[Aadill]

One thing that a lot of people do not understand, and this is a concept that came up when a conservative blogger made a post on our forums about the Tea Party of Richmond complaining about Occupy Richmond not paying the same fees that they did (the Tea Party signed for a non-profit business license and was actually labeled as The Tea Party of Richmond, Inc."):

What we discussed was the fact that when the Tea Party protest in this video amassed thousands of people (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4w8H...eature=related) they left. Protesting for a period of time and then leaving DOES NOT CREATE CHANGE. The Occupations themselves are middle fingers to the government who, in the case of Raleigh, require a protest permit good for only four hours. The government which you are protesting sets the time, place, and manner, for which you may speak out against them.

See why that is a problem? The Occupation has some logistical issues and has made some downright head-shaking mistakes (I'm a fucking backpacker for chrissakes, I'm appalled by some of the methods they are using to inhabit this space) but the point of the Occupation itself is to say, "WE ARE NOT GOING TO FOLLOW YOUR RULES BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT LISTENING."

So, yeah, the space that is being occupied tends to be publicly visible because it becomes a public square, an agora... a forum. It is there to promote discussion. The /facepalm I have is because of the lack of logistics, it's driving people away instead of bringing them in. Again, that's what the media focuses on, instead of the message. Just realize that, first.


Shiftin: Perhaps I should redefine. Expenditures are one thing but let's take a look at the most (in)famous example: Property tax loopholes. Private jets should not be tax deductible. Trademark trading should not allow you to evade property (and sales) taxes:

http://www.wral.com/news/state/nccap...gpost/9744635/

[Aadill]

that's actually two examples, shiftin, but you get the point.

[Aadill]

Furthermore i do agree there are a lot of EXPENDITURES that do need to be kept in place to promote certain behaviors. There are others, though, that are being put in place to ALLOW certain behaviors, hence the negative descriptor.

[Klath]

Originally Posted by Shiftin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The tax loophole stuff is talking point nonsense from people who don't actually understand the tax code and the federal budget.

Again, the wealthy are able to game the system in their favor. Case in point:

From: G.E.’s Strategies Let It Avoid Taxes Altogether
[...]

A review of company filings and Congressional records shows that one of the most striking advantages of General Electric is its ability to lobby for, win and take advantage of tax breaks.

Over the last decade, G.E. has spent tens of millions of dollars to push for changes in tax law, from more generous depreciation schedules on jet engines to “green energy” credits for its wind turbines. But the most lucrative of these measures allows G.E. to operate a vast leasing and lending business abroad with profits that face little foreign taxes and no American taxes as long as the money remains overseas.
[...]