Game Mechanics: Pulling while Invisible

[Daliant17447]

but how will TMO pull VP dragons to the zone in!?!?!?!

[Treats]

Originally Posted by uygi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That's not what I'm talking about.

Monks pull by tagging and running back, then FDing. They then sneak, so that when the mobs turn their backs to go home, they can't see the monk. The monk then tags again while sneaking, and only the mob that was attacked will notice because the others can't "see" the monk. As I'm sure you know, mobs can always "see" players they have aggro on. As has been said, Verant never had any idea FD would be used this way when they gave it to the monk class, so that very thoroughly throws the "never intended" argument out the window. The real question is is it classic, and I never played a monk but I'm pretty sure what I'm describing is how monks always pulled on live.

Not trolling here, just can't see how this is really any different from using invis. Invis, IVU, hide and sneak all do the same thing: they make the mob unable to perceive the player. Different forms of functional "invis", and different combinations behave somewhat differently, but they all set faction to "indifferent" when in effect.

Sneak did not work like this on Live. It is not how Monk's pulled on Live.

If you pulled a mob and then Feigned you COULD NOT remove yourself from the hate list simply by using Hide or Sneak.

The only way to remove yourself was to be CoH'd, zoning, having a successful feign, or the mob resetting to its static spawn point.

What Sneak does is significantly reduce the aggro range of a mob.

It will not work correctly here because the projectile system on range items is almost instantaneous.

Example of how it is supposed to work:

Player Sneaks up behind a spawn of 3 mobs
Player throws/shoots one of the mobs
Player has a successful Sneak as the projectile is in the air before it hits the mob they want to pull
Mob then comes single due to the reduced aggro range of the targeted mob

[uygi]

Originally Posted by Treats [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Example of how it is supposed to work:

Player Sneaks up behind a spawn of 3 mobs
Player throws/shoots one of the mobs
Player has a successful Sneak as the projectile is in the air before it hits the mob they want to pull
Mob then comes single due to the reduced aggro range of the targeted mob

That doesn't make sense. Sneaking reduces the mob's ability to ask for help from his buddies? Being "invisible" to the mob makes a lot more sense to me.

And yes Nirgon, mobs going home separately is also part of it, but certainly not all of it.

[uygi]

Originally Posted by Treats [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you pulled a mob and then Feigned you COULD NOT remove yourself from the hate list simply by using Hide or Sneak.

I suppose that would be the most quintessential example of what we're debating here. Should my aggro reset it I hide or am invis'd before I stand up? I didn't play an FD class on live. If it's not supposed to work, then I guess the only way to escape a sticky situation would be to have a groupmate invis you while FD, /q out and come back invis...

[Nirgon]

Mobs going home separately is a lot of it.

[Treats]

http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/s...ead.php?t=2869

Written by Kuurus IceBear

Basically, Sneak does two things - depending where you are in relation to the mob. One, automatically sets you to indifferent if in the rear arc of the mob - and two, reduces aggro range if in the forward arc of the mob.

If you come up behind two mobs and fire a bow, or throw at one - only the target will come as long as you keep sneak engaged. It negates him from chain aggroing the second mob. As if the first mob normally says "Come on, there's a guy over here" and the second says "I don't see anything", shrugs and stays where he is.

There are some mobs that work on social aggro that don't need to "see" the player to be aggro'd by the other mob, most of the time sneak pulling won't help in these isolated instances. But there are LOTS of mobs people have told me are linked by social aggro and I couldn't sneak pull just one, yet I have *shrug*

Anyways, most mobs in norrath work on chain aggro - one runs by aggro'd, it aggro's another, BUT Sneak negates this in most instances.

Sneak pulling can be done from in front too, but requires greater range. Throwing will not work from in front....you can be in front of the target, but NOT in front of the additional mobs you don't want to come. Throwing requires you to be too close to be out of aggro range when hide drops, even with sneak engaged. A nice bow with good range works well for this. If you are far enough away, with sneak engaged, you can fire at one, and the other won't come, even if facing you.

The important thing is KEEP SNEAK ENGAGED until the mob is past anything else it can aggro on it's way to you. If you get hit so that sneak is off, or just take it off, then all normal chain aggro comes into effect.

By the way, because of this, sneak pulling casters is trickier. If they hit you with a nuke, sneak comes off, re-engage it quickly and you have a chance still to negate any chain aggro.

In the end, it's all in the placement of the mobs, use angles and line of sight to minimize aggro with the others you don't want. It's not a simple case of "put sneak on, stand in front of two mobs, hit one and the other shouldn't come". There is no substitute for experience, pathing and aggro is different everywhere. Learn exactly how sneak affects/reduces that aggro in different places and then put it to use.

Responses to some questions:

Yes, aggro radius pulling is useful with sneak too. I use this in Karmors basement where the halls are narrow an there is no room for range weapons.

Line of sight helps a lot in these cases. If you get in a position where one can see you but another can't, while having sneak and hide engaged, then you drop hide - but keep sneak on.

Soon as you see one start to aggro and move, back away quickly. As long as you are out of aggro radius of the other by the time it hits you and sneak drops, you only get the one.

Using this, I have been able to keep the basement completely cleared, getting nothing but single pulls for 8 hours. It makes having the "necessary" cleric and chanter unecessary in an area that gives great xp - I've done the whole basement with nothing but 2 rogues and a druid.

As for Hide, it doesn't really affect the chain aggro betwen mobs - Sneak takes care of this. The usefullness of Hide only comes into play if you have to pass other mobs on your way back to the group with your pull.

If you are hidden, you can pass other mobs safely without aggroing even though your pull is aggro and following you.

p.s. - Nimm is correct, I was simply referring to the pulling range of *most* weapons as far as pulling safely from the front. Of course there are some exceptions. Edited by: Zato at: 6/11/01 11:53:47 am

This is what I get from the post:

Sneak reduces the aggro range of the mob before and after you are on the Hate list.

However, it will not remove you from the Hate list.

Being invisible provides no reduction in aggro range after you are added onto a Hate list.

Originally Posted by uygi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I suppose that would be the most quintessential example of what we're debating here. Should my aggro reset it I hide or am invis'd before I stand up? I didn't play an FD class on live. If it's not supposed to work, then I guess the only way to escape a sticky situation would be to have a groupmate invis you while FD, /q out and come back invis...

Have a thread relating to this here:

http://www.project1999.org/forums/sh...ad.php?t=68541

[uygi]

Originally Posted by Treats [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Would seem to indicate that hiding successfully stops social aggro. Invis is not mentioned. Also sounds like the source quoted wasn't really familiar with hide for pulling purposes... his first sentence about hide says it doesn't help, the second one indicates it stops social aggro. He apparently saw no need for hide, but isn't commenting on its mechanics. Overall I'd say the source doesn't sound very expert.

[Haul]

remove and fix this shit plz nilbog

[Treats]

Originally Posted by uygi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Would seem to indicate that hiding successfully stops social aggro. Invis is not mentioned. Also sounds like the source quoted wasn't really familiar with hide for pulling purposes... his first sentence about hide says it doesn't help, the second one indicates it stops social aggro. He apparently saw no need for hide, but isn't commenting on its mechanics. Overall I'd say the source doesn't sound very expert.

...

He is saying Hide does not affect chain aggro when THE MOB is moving past other mobs.

He is saying that Hide helps when THE ROGUE is moving past other mobs with the one he just sneak pulled behind him.

[Xadion]

So POP = Kunark and Velious and even Luclin? ... and during all of them I CoShadow pulled shit like a motherfucker?

sorry peeps but "on EQ Mac" does not = "how it should be on p99"