Best 4 person all caster/priest group

[Elizondo]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Still denying what OP's party picked, it was Enchanter/Shaman. Seems like you are the one who can't convince people of your argument.

Class preference over optimization. EQ Happens.

They didn't say SHM / ENC was better than CLR / ENC

The opposite actually

lol

2 years of your life down the drain yelling at the clouds

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Elizondo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Class preference over optimization. EQ Happens.

Would you be saying the same thing if OP picked Cleric? It was just class preference, your argument had nothing to do with it?

Originally Posted by Elizondo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

They didn't say SHM / ENC was better than CLR / ENC

The opposite actually

Please quote OP saying Cleric/Enchanter is better than Shaman/Enchanter.

[Elizondo]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Would you be saying the same thing if OP picked Cleric? It was just class preference, your argument had nothing to do with it?

I'm not claiming one of the OP's friends picked shaman because you convinced them SHM / ENC is better than CLR / ENC

You have to prove that. You made the claim. Prove it.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Please quote OP saying Cleric/Enchanter is better than Shaman/Enchanter.

See above

Your games and goal post shifting are so laughably pathetic and transparent

2 years you've been wasting your life in this thread lol

Embarrassing

[eqravenprince]

OP here... I purposely kept my post vague cause I enjoy all the banter back and forth and theorycrafting. Didn't expect it to go 500+ pages however. Group didn't last, but this thread will live forever thanks to Toxigen who ressurects it every few months. Then DSM eventually responds, and he is a lightning rod for replies from the peanut gallery causing this post to go another 50 pages. I predict this will hit 1000 by this time next year.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by eqravenprince [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

OP here... I purposely kept my post vague cause I enjoy all the banter back and forth and theorycrafting. Didn't expect it to go 500+ pages however. Group didn't last, but this thread will live forever thanks to Toxigen who ressurects it every few months. Then DSM eventually responds, and he is a lightning rod for replies from the peanut gallery causing this post to go another 50 pages. I predict this will hit 1000 by this time next year.

Good to see you again! Unfortunately the peanut gallery continues.

Originally Posted by Elizondo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm not claiming one of the OP's friends picked shaman because you convinced them

The one making the claim here is yourself:

Originally Posted by Elizondo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Class preference over optimization.

You are explicitly claiming this happened. You are one who needs to prove it lol.

I am just stating what happened, which is they picked Shaman. That is an indicator you weren't convincing.

[Vexenu]

DSM, do you truly believe that a Shaman is the best overall duo with an Enchanter? Or just the best level 60 endgame duo? Or just the best duo for killing certain mobs?

If you affirm Enchanter/Shaman as the overall best, do you concede any circumstances in which you would admit Enchanter/Druid or Enchanter/Cleric to be superior? For example, say you wanted the fastest leveling duo. Or if you wanted a duo that specialized in dungeon crawling. Or if you wanted a duo that was viable with the least amount of gear. Or if you wanted a duo that was the most self-sufficient.

Do you leave room for the superiority of Enchanter/Cleric or Enchanter/Druid duos for any of the above scenarios? Or do you ferociously hold fast to the notion that Enchanter/Shaman is completely superior across the board?

I reach out to you in good faith with this question, and urge you to set aside your well-known bias toward swamp magic as you consider your answer.

[Elizondo]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Good to see you again! Unfortunately the peanut gallery continues.



The one making the claim here is yourself:



You are explicitly claiming this happened. You are one who needs to prove it lol.

I am just stating what happened, which is they picked Shaman. That is an indicator you weren't convincing.

The OP picked NECRO dummy

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Vexenu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

DSM, do you truly believe that a Shaman is the best overall duo with an Enchanter? Or just the best level 60 endgame duo? Or just the best duo for killing certain mobs?

If you affirm Enchanter/Shaman as the overall best, do you concede any circumstances in which you would admit Enchanter/Druid or Enchanter/Cleric to be superior? For example, say you wanted the fastest leveling duo. Or if you wanted a duo that specialized in dungeon crawling. Or if you wanted a duo that was viable with the least amount of gear. Or if you wanted a duo that was the most self-sufficient.

Do you leave room for the superiority of Enchanter/Cleric or Enchanter/Druid duos for any of the above scenarios? Or do you ferociously hold fast to the notion that Enchanter/Shaman is completely superior across the board?

I reach out to you in good faith with this question, and urge you to set aside your well-known bias toward swamp magic as you consider your answer.

Unfortunately you are assuming I have an extreme bias towards Shamans, and then coloring how you view my posts from that perspective. This has never been true, it is just a straw man.

Please show me the quote where I say "Shamans are the best at everything no matter what". You won't find it.

We have been talking about overall best 4 player caster/priest group the entire time. Did you think otherwise? Just to make sure you don't twist my words, my default assesment of "overall" is mostly endgame focused, instead of leveling focused. This is because the point of leveling is to get to 60, and a four player caster group is already leveling fast. If you want to put a large emphasis on leveling, there are probably all sorts of caster groups who could level faster in certain level ranges. A four player Mage group is probably leveling faster than a four player Enchanter group from levels 1-12, because Enchanters don't get charm until 12. But I doubt anyone cares about optimizing levels 1-12, they are easy already. That is why "overall" is mostly an assessment of how the group works in the endgame.

Of course there are scenarios where other classes are better. Druids are better at killing Ice Burrowers compared to Shamans, as a simple exmaple. I don't see anyone clamoring over Ice Burrowers as a camp people really want to do, so I don't really include Ice Burrower kill efficiency into this discussion. If there was an alternate universe where Ice Burrower killing was the only thing that mattered on P99, 4x Druids would be my choice in that alternate universe.

Originally Posted by Elizondo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The OP picked NECRO dummy

I didn't say otherwise. I said OP's group picked Shaman. You do realize OP asked about four classes, not one? The logic is that OP asked for advise about four classes, so they could pass this information on to the other three players.

OP can correct me if they didn't actually tell the group anything, but are you suggesting you believe that OP asked about four classes just so they could pick their own class without talking to the group?

[Vexenu]

I submit the following videos as clear and indisputable evidence that Enchanter/Shaman is inferior to Enchanter/Cleric. In this first video, at 1:55, we find DSM grouped with two Enchanters in HS. Things take a turn for the worse when charm breaks unexpectedly, and contrary to DSM's insistence that a Shaman can easily help an Enchanter recover from a bad break, we see that DSM's Enchanter is at 3% health before he can even get a heal off, and is only saved because the other Enchanter landed a last second mez!




In contrast, I found the following video of a random Enchanter/Cleric duo in HS. At 57 minutes, we see the Enchanter suffer a very ill-timed charm break just as she is pulling, compounded by some repops. It's almost a worst case scenario, but as we can see, the Cleric not only has a stun and burst healing to help the Enchanter survive, but is able to leverage the power of CH to keep the golem pet alive through a very hairy situation. Needless to say, a Shaman would have been absolutely hopeless in this scenario.



This is not theorycraft or mere idle speculation, these are real gameplay videos, one of which features the very antagonist of this thread himself! And now, DSM, with such incontrovertible evidence before you, I demand that you concede.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Vexenu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I submit the following videos as clear and indisputable evidence that Enchanter/Shaman is inferior to Enchanter/Cleric. In this first video, at 1:55, we find DSM grouped with two Enchanters in HS. Things take a turn for the worse when charm breaks unexpectedly, and contrary to DSM's insistence that a Shaman can easily help an Enchanter recover from a bad break, we see that DSM's Enchanter is at 3% health before he can even get a heal off, and is only saved because the other Enchanter landed a last second mez!




In contrast, I found the following video of a random Enchanter/Cleric duo in HS. At 57 minutes, we see the Enchanter suffer a very ill-timed charm break just as she is pulling, compounded by some repops. It's almost a worst case scenario, but as we can see, the Cleric not only has a stun and burst healing to help the Enchanter survive, but is able to leverage the power of CH to keep the golem pet alive through a very hairy situation. Needless to say, a Shaman would have been absolutely hopeless in this scenario.



This is not theorycraft or mere idle speculation, these are real gameplay videos, one of which features the very antagonist of this thread himself! And now, DSM, with such incontrovertible evidence before you, I demand that you concede.

This is desparate for sure. This wasn't an example video showing peak Enchanter/Shaman play. The other group members weren't even 60.

The Enchanter in question wasn't using rune when he started. You can see the chat logs, there are no "magical skin" messages. It seems like they were fairly new to either the game and/or the class.

You are basically using examples of lower skill players as evidence, which is silly. If an Enchanter isn't using Rune by the upper 50s, that is not the fault of the Shaman class.