BDA to Phinigel

[Juryiel]

Originally Posted by Ravager [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

People fuck everything up. That's why /random is the only fair way to go. You can't fix a bias with another bias. It just doesn't work that way. If you know that a particular outcome will happen 70% of the time and you try to compensate for that by guessing which outcome will happen with a 70% rate, you're only going to be right 49% of the time, where if you just said, "This will happen 70% of the time." You'd be right 70% of the time.
......

I really want to see the numbers. I predict it's not as even or fair as you think.

When you make that argument with me, it is a strawman because I do not consider DKP perfectly fair. And DKP systems vary across the board so some are more fair than others. But MOST of those systems are more fair than random, and this is more my argument. You ask for numbers, but I would like you to generate numbers of /random, and include people's behavior in this simulation, as well as the structure of Everquest. You naively imagine that this will be some nice and flat distribution but both of these things individually make this distribution totally skewed, and it's much worse when you combine them together. So I think most people who support DKP don't necessarily think it's perfect, but they all think it's much better than random.

And again just to give a direct example of one of the many, MANY things that make your naively conceived behavior of /random actually be bad:

Imagine you have a guild of 10 people and 5 of them raid 100% and another 5 of them raid 20%. They spend 20 game hours figuring out an encounter and getting 0 loot. So the hardcore people invest 100 man-hours and the casual people invest 20 man-hours. The hardcore people have invested 80 man-hours more, and both groups got the same amount of loot, 0. After the first successful completion, the hardcore and the casuals will have a chance to get loot proportional to their attendance for that ONE raid, but if you take into account all the previous raids, the casuals get a much better loot to time ratio, and the hardcore don't catch up to their fair share for a number of raids after. They actually will never get to their fair share, as it's bounded by the number of man hours spent on failures. But even to get close, it then takes several raids. If you're doing difficult or new things often, you can see how this shafts people who invest more time.

TL;DR you are applying 'math' but you are applying it to some other idealized / simple system, not to EQ, and without consideration of the actual structure of investment vs reward present in the actual game. If you are going to talk about people doing the math, you should lead by example and do it right.

[jcr4990]

Originally Posted by Ravager [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

People fuck everything up. That's why /random is the only fair way to go. You can't fix a bias with another bias. It just doesn't work that way. If you know that a particular outcome will happen 70% of the time and you try to compensate for that by guessing which outcome will happen with a 70% rate, you're only going to be right 49% of the time, where if you just said, "This will happen 70% of the time." You'd be right 70% of the time.

And in the case with DKP, a handful of individuals prosper at the expense of a majority that were promised fairness.

The DKP argument goes, put in more time, get more loot, even loot you want. But I bet if you looked at the numbers of time spent vs. loot won vs. loot wanted, it'll be very much disproportionate. How many people bid on Uber Penis Extension of Halfling Intrigue? Only one gets it. How many people didn't get it? I bet the ones that didn't get it didn't start bidding on other crap, because they still want the Uber Penis Extension of Halfling Intrigue. That means all of the DKP they have is dormant. Just lying in wait, while other DKP out there is scooping up other loot (unless your idiot guild is letting that shit rot) so now who is really getting more loot for their time?

I really want to see the numbers. I predict it's not as even or fair as you think.

I stopped posting links to the upgrades I was getting because its happening so often that I got bored taking screenshots and cropping them. To be completely honest I don't give a single fuck whether over a long period of time I'd get more loot with /random or dkp. I can tell you that DKP feels INFINITELY more fair across the board than loot council ever did and I literally got more/better loot in 1 night than 3-4 months of LC raiding.

Now that u mention it though I raided with a guild in WoW for a bit that was all /random for everything and it blew dicks. Pretty much everyone in the guild that wasn't the GM/Officers hated it and stubborn leadership refused to implement something reasonable. I ended up leaving and bringing around a dozen frustrated friends with me to a DKP guild. I still remember trying to get T6 shoulders on my hunter for like an eternity and I was basically the only main hunter in the guild that didn't get them yet and some shitty app that just got full member who barely even showed up beat me on a roll on the only pair that dropped in like 3 months or some shit. I got tells from like half the raid feeling bad for me that night lol. Random can go fuck itself just as hard as LC in my book. Glad u enjoy it tho.

[bigbard1]

The everquest gods have punished me by putting Daldaen in my guild. What have i done to deserve this.

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

I swear to god. The fact that apparently many of you do not know the only way a long term dkp system is fair is if you do quarterly adjustments to the mean makes me feel I have come upon a tribe of pigmies in some rainforest, who have not yet discovered you can count on the other hand, too.

Every non-bs dkp guild does quarterly adjustments, to drag down high earners (which encourages spending) and boost newer members (to fend off discouragement) and also imposes a dkp decay rate so people can't disappear for weeks and still return top o' the heap.

I thought this was basic for any rational dkp guild. Otherwise, it turns into a scam pure and simple for older members' benefits.

[Red_Messiah]

Originally Posted by bigbard1 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The everquest gods have punished me by putting Daldaen in my guild. What have i done to deserve this.

Jesus I hope you're not a druid too

[Red_Messiah]

Randoming loot causes as much drama as anything else - got 3 necros all waiting on that last piece for their epic?

Tell me the guy waiting the longest isn't going to get upset that the guy playing an alt who didn't make his character til 3-4 months ago wins the piece. While his 1-2 year wait continues...

There's no perfect system.

[AzzarTheGod]

Originally Posted by Red_Messiah [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Randoming loot causes as much drama as anything else - got 3 necros all waiting on that last piece for their epic?

Tell me the guy waiting the longest isn't going to get upset that the guy playing an alt who didn't make his character til 3-4 months ago wins the piece. While his 1-2 year wait continues...

There's no perfect system.

This. The random system is horrific

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by bigbard1 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The everquest gods have punished me by putting Daldaen in my guild. What have i done to deserve this.

Lol'd. What guild are you guys in?

[jcr4990]

Originally Posted by bigbard1 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The everquest gods have punished me by putting Daldaen in my guild. What have i done to deserve this.

http://www.modestman.club/

[jcr4990]

Originally Posted by Bruno [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Lol'd. What guild are you guys in?

They're in EoE

Unfortunately