Best 4 person all caster/priest group

[Troxx]

Page 273 I provide some summaries:

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

More or less this.

All the good information and discussion can be found in the first few pages of this thread. It really boiled down to whether or not a group wanted redundant utility or whether they wanted to just kill things faster. DSM tried to make the case that shamans were perfectly good dps. His napkin math showed they were just as good or close but over time were actually better or equal while also bringing utility thusly implying shamans are the clear cut 4th spot winner.

The great dps “debate”:

-We were presented logs of him soloing a level 40 Jin shaman frog (literally the weakest mob in the zone). This was not relevant to the topic.
-then we got some napkin math about med rates, nukes per hour … you name it …
-We were later gifted yet another solo rot/dot fight of him and his pet on a zone in golem. Again … not relevant to the discussion.
-we watched him misinterpret parses given to him. Claiming I was nuking 4-8 times (lol) for 825 per pop per fight assuming that all “hits” from my mage were nukes and not remembering my pet nukes.
-we watched him ignore breakout fights showing a LOW of high 70s dps and a HIGH of over 175dps with the average floating 100-120 which was right where I said my non-epic, non-focus, no clicky boots mage would be in a fast moving group.
-we later saw Ally’s 58 mage put up similar numbers (granted we don’t know what kind of group she was in but I digress…)
-WE NEVER SAW DSM ONCE JOIN A FAST MOVING, HIGH DPS GROUP TO SHOW HOW HIS SHAMAN COULD PERFORM … only napkin math.

Side tangents we saw:

-a couple of dozen pages of him talking about how enchanters can’t really solo effectively until level 32, going so far as to say his no regen mildly twinked warrior at 27ish could do more dps than an unhasted level 17-18 charm pet as evidence that enchanters don’t solo well after they get charm (lol). We were given single fights for each. We pointed out that the charm pet was 10ish levels lower than his warrior, unhasted, and ignored the fact that done properly an enchanter can chain solo with no down time while the warrior will eventually have to stop. It’s a shame he felt the need to stack odds so aggressively to try and prove something we all know is BS. Ironically this side tangent dozens of pages in length was not even relevant.
-several more dozen pages involving this theoretical group having a pocket cleric to log in as needed to rationalize having the shaman in the group (lol wtf?)

The focus of discussion has flipped so often it’s hard to keep track. Goalposts are constantly moving and any time hard reality slaps an autist in the face there is shameless redirection or attempts to flat out ignore data not consistent with an autist’s agenda. In 23 years of playing this game and haunting forums I have NEVER seen anything as hilariously obtuse as this thread.

This really is simple. Any 4 man best caster group will have at a minimum a cleric and an enchanter. Charm is so overpowered that the obvious 3rd choice is another enchanter. This leaves one spot left with 4 possible choices.

A). Choice A is a 4th enchanter. Most dps. Some added risk. No additional anything but yes the most dps. As a cleric in this group I might go a little nutty having 3 potential targets to blast heal and 3 pets that will also eventually need a heal but if played well the enchanters should have any pet break on lockdown immediately.

B). Choice B is a mage who brings additional value of malo debuffs for pets, CoTH, pet haste masks, DS, a beefy pet to stand in the event charms break or simply to do great dps and nuke dps potential which is always welcome and never wasted because it isn’t a dot. As has been shown already, a good mage is a respectable 100-120 dps at the high end (more with pet focus, epic, and/or Velk boots). That is strong dps and honestly not far behind a high end quadding, hasted pet. It’s as strong or close to as strong as a standard “safe” xp group pet hasted or quadding. Strong dps, no added risk, additional perks added (malo likely the best of them)

C). Choice C is a necromancer who brings additional value of FD, backup rez, undead charm potential, additional pet which isn’t bad for the same reasons mage pet isn’t bad, ok-ish nukes and personal dps (they aren’t efficient but lich is some awesome mana regen). On top of that they bring some redundancy in that they have a good Cc tool kit and can heal pretty well (but the group doesn’t need it). On the whole a decent add for dps alone with summon pet and personal nukes but with utility that ISNT redundant and adds palpable value.

D). Choice D is a shaman. Shamans add value with malo. They have the worst pet option with low dps but it can take a few hits. They can nuke to add some dps but not efficient, lower impact hits and longer cast times. Mediocre dps when trying hard. They do have an expansive toolkit but this is where the redundancy kicks in. You won’t need the heals, slows, roots. Dots are worthless as stuff will die to fast. They do bring a measure of increased safety but with a cleric and TWO enchanters … how much safer can you get?? So yeah. Poor to mediocre dps. Maybe good in short burst of chain nuking but that still falls behind B or C. Tons of utility that unfortunately … is not unique to what the group already has other than malo.

I will close by quoting my very first post in this thread below. I still stand by it.

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Great summary, and an accurate presentation of options available to anybody in this situation. Thanks for not muddying up the thread trying to suggest leveling a 5th alt either, since this thread is specifically about 4s.

I'd personally choose Cleric/Enchanter/Mage/Necro, which covers everything. It might not have the same amount of dps as multiple enc's, but I like that it gives you basically everything, while still being able to obliterate 99.9% of content. To me repeating classes is just boring.

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Shamans are a fan-fucking-tastic class. By heads and shoulders one of the strongest. They are god-mode. But … the scope of this thread was very specific. Given the constraints of the question … they are not the best choice unless your group mates are incompetent and you expect there to be oh shit moments a lot that would threaten a wipe. If we are making that assumption and that players are inattentive and suck, however, we shouldn’t have 2 enchanters in the group to start with.

Best “safety” group?

Cleric ench mage necro would be my vote. You’ve got 3 classes with CC. 3 tanks (2 summon and a charm). 2 rezzers. 3 classes that can give mana to the cleric (clarity, mod rods and twitches), 2 classes that can rez, 2 classes that can heal, both malo and tash, and slows. And you have plenty of dps to do anything. Shaman still doesn’t fit the bill as the most ideal.

But assuming players don’t suck it’s one of the following;

Clr/ench/ench/nec
Clr/ench/ench/ench
Clr/ench/ench/mage

Page 278 … anticipation is building …

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I’ll admit it. I told DSM about 200 pages ago I would take him seriously when he actually went out and gathered him some actual data with him in an actual group. Since then I have probably contributed a healthy 80:20 mix of trolling his eclectic ramble of nonsense vs actual active engagement in the false hope he will have an epiphany.

It has been enjoyable.

We celebrated page 100 with many good times and laughter

We rolled our eyes and got slightly nauseated with page 200

Maybe a party at 300?

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Originally Posted by Headbusta [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The pocket cleric logic, is like saying in a boxing match you have a gun and are allowed to use that. Like in the rules it doesn't say you cant use a gun, but obviously you cant.

Originally Posted by Kich867 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

And you only need to level a druid to like, 44 to get most teleports, necros get twitch at 44. If leveling a cleric to 49 is considered low enough effort surely we can also include these other classes who are way, way better at leveling than clerics are? We can also bring a pocket bard along to join the group between pulls for mana and regen song.

Pocket characters should be off the table for the discussion.

[Troxx]

Page 288-289 … I had completely forgotten about this! One of the funnier tangents that actually did change the direction of discussion

Originally Posted by Toxigen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Honestly, I may even take a druid over a shaman for 1-60 leveling in that enc / enc / cleric / XXX 4 man. If you did Warrens --> Perma --> CT --> Kedge --> Chardok you could always have an animal to charm, and this is also an insanely high ZEM pathway. Certainly not as good as mage / necro, but hell...it really isn't that far behind either.

Plenty of other dungeon options with animals too...plus the luxury of porting around...especially nice for an all caster group that needs to go get their spells!

Can't wait to watch DSM go through the roof when he reads this hot take.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Then you wouldn't have a very useful class at 60. A lot of combinations work well in the leveling process, but then you have a 60 druid that isn't offering as much as another class.

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Case could be made it’s about as useful at 60 as a shaman in this theoretical group. POTG, free clicky group regen, ports/evacs and some half decent druid nukes and DS vs a whopping 55dps with of shaman.

Maybe tox has a point?!

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Ok DSM we have established shamans are less than half as good as a mage. I now vote we redirect this discussion.

DSM now you gotta make the case why 55 dps worth of shaman is so much better than all the extra stacking utility Druids have compared to shamans in this theoretical group makeup!

….. and go!

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You didn't read the data, which is why you are sticking to the lowest DPS number possible. You are basically saying Mage DPS is bad because you won't let the Mage use their pet. Great argument.

55 DPS is assuming you aren't letting your Shaman root/rot in a group chain pulling easy mobs. Again, that is like telling the Mage they can't use their pet. Nobody cares that you don't like root/rotting in a group.

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

DSM now realizing that in using his own backwards logic (dps is irrelevant since you already hit your soft cap) he now realizes he has to compete with Druids for a spot.

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-1-59 druid might just be flat out better everywhere. If you have animals to charm it’s no contest.
-at 60 the shaman is only 55 dps. Druid isn’t far behind that but has actual utility that isn’t redundant unlike the shaman.

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Ok DSM. Make your case. We will be the judge and jury. Why is a shaman better than a druid?

…. and go!

Originally Posted by PlsNoBan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I made the druid argument earlier in this thread somewhere. Don't care to dig for it. Druid is a WAY better option than shaman if animals are available to charm. It's not even a contest in a zone like Chardok. Likely better even without charm. In the EXTREMELY unlikely event that "safety" is needed beyond 2 encs and a cleric. Druid direct healing is as good/better? Torpor isn't an emergency heal for when shit hits the fan. Druid also has the option of evac. Their utility has less overlap with the existing group and their buffs are better for casters than shaman buffs. I said this before somewhere but the only caster/priest class that is potentially WORSE for this group is Wizard. I honestly think literally every other caster/priest would be preferable to shaman for this specific group makeup.

This thread is so much more interesting when you glaze over the hundreds of “you … no you … no I said you … but I you …. But YOU YOU … no you you’d me!” posts and just skip to the quick bursts of interesting back and forths.

[Troxx]

Ok … at page 300. We had a celebration:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...06923&page=300

Originally Posted by PlsNoBan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

300 pages and DSM still copy pasting dumb shit

For my boy Troxx:

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Originally Posted by Allishia [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

woohoo grats on 300 pages, good job everyone =P

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

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I’m off to bed. Gotta be up at 0500 for work tomorrow

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Troxx has been broken. He is posting a completely biased and delusional summary of the thread. The post history has not changed. His delusions will not change reality, even if he continues.

He is just showing everybody that he would rather do this than answer simple questions. 70+ pages of dodging and trolling.

In a different thread, the question of "which camps are better with a cleric?" was answered immediately, without 70+ pages of bloat. Troxx clearly didn't know the answer, or he would have said it. There is nothing wrong with admitting he was wrong or didn't know. But he can't do this, so he spams instead.

Troxx is clowning himself in a spectacular fashion right now. There is no logical reason why Troxx would think this makes him look good, and me look bad.

[Penish]

i found dsm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kav7tifmyTg

[bcbrown]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I asked Troxx if he could name a camp where a Cleric would be better than a Shaman at least 60 pages ago. He couldn't answer. In a different thread PatChapp could name Chardok Royals right off the bat. I have been waiting for Troxx to say "Chardok Royals" for 60+ pages now, but he couldn't do it.

Originally Posted by PatChapp [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The big lvl 60 cash camp that requires enchanters/cleric is chardok royals.

It sounds like we're in agreement now that there exist camps that need (as in require) clerics, while DSM has not been able to name any camp that needs (as in require) a shaman for this 4-man caster group.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It sounds like we're in agreement now that there exist camps that need (as in require) clerics, while DSM has not been able to name any camp that needs (as in require) a shaman for this 4-man caster group.

You forgot the second quote:

Originally Posted by PatChapp [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The lowest we've used is 52 and mana was very tight. If queen has a shield 52cleric is really hairy

This camp can be done with a 52 cleric, which is a pocket cleric. I am glad we are in agreement that Chardok Royals does not need a level 60 main Cleric to do it. We are also in agreement that no objective rule exists in this thread preventing pocket characters from being used.

Vaniki is a camp already named where slowing would be difficult without a Shaman using Malo, and a single Cleric would run out of mana before the fight was over. This means the Cleric is getting support from the Shaman for healing and extending the time between CH.

Fungi King and West Waste Dragons are two camps where a Shaman is better than a Cleric.

This means you have 3 camps where you'd want a 60 Torpor Shaman thus far, and two camps for Cleric, at least one of which can be done with a pocket Cleric.

Chardok Royals were already discussed earlier in the thread. Troxx spent 70+ pages trolling and dodging instead of providing such an easy answer. I wonder why.

[Jimjam]

I don’t think I could give a definition to the term ‘pocket character’ that fully describes what is being talked about.

[Toxigen]

BUT MUH POCKET CLERIC

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It sounds like we're in agreement now that there exist camps that need (as in require) clerics, while DSM has not been able to name any camp that needs (as in require) a shaman for this 4-man caster group.

Correct

BUT MUH POCKET CLERIC

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At work. Will continue my read-through when I find the time. Currently page 307 and literally 98% of it so far is DSM arguing the same thing to the same people without saying new things