Discussion: PvP Deaths (Item/Coin/XP Loot/Gain)

[Softcore PK]

Originally Posted by Nirgon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There's worse things than that. How about the top guild controlling Sebilis who will attack any player not in their guild? I'd trade getting ganked a couple handfuls of times in east commons for that, bud. The low levels are just the tip of the iceberg. You have to have a thick skin on you and a shit load of free time.

Frustration is a function of expectation. Know that you will be griefed through low levels and may not ever see the raid targets you saw on blue.

If you're rolling here with the expectation of running the show, stomping everyone and it is an outrage if you ever die or can't take over a camp, you're going to have a stroke.

Sebilis is end game, anyone getting ganked there will have put up with their share of grief already. Seriously, if you want to get a bluebie to quit all you have to do is attack them while they're fighting an npc or two and accidentally (or not) cause a pve exp death. We need these bluebies if we're to have much of a server; just because you're a hardcore player that knows to put up with shit like serious exp loss does not mean everyone else should be.

[Bockscar]

Originally Posted by Nirgon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There's worse things than that. How about the top guild controlling Sebilis who will attack any player not in their guild? I'd trade getting ganked a couple handfuls of times in east commons for that, bud. The low levels are just the tip of the iceberg. You have to have a thick skin on you and a shit load of free time.

That can happen either way, and it'll be worse with itemloot because that top guild is then also routinely looting the gear of those who have less.

The ultimate point is that itemloot has only one single true merit: it makes the outcome of a fight more meaningful. That isn't worth more than the dozens of negative elements that are brought along by itemloot. On top of that, the most important fact is that the majority is against it and history proves how poorly it has worked when attempted and how every game worth mentioning since EQ has stayed the hell away from it.

Itemloot discourages the things that a PvP server benefits from (frequent PvP, better fights because people don't PvP naked or spend most of the time bagging shit, class balance that hinges solely on being able to wear gear) and encourages the things that are detrimental to a PvP server (unprovoked griefing, greater incentive to cheat and exploit, chasing away new players, poor class balance due to skewed itemization, and over-abundance of easymode classes).

Either way, it's pointless to discuss anymore because it isn't being implemented, Rogean has already said that this server isn't being made for the kind of player who prefers itemloot, and if they ever do decide to try some form of it then it'll be a lesser form that doesn't fuck the server up the way traditional itemloot has been proven to do.

[genrah]

All this talk about item loot not working? Complete BS and clearly these folks didnt play on Rallos Zek in its heyday.

-item loot worked fine on Rallos Zek until LDON augs made everything no drop
-adds an element to the game and true death penalty
-adds to the market, as pk'd good find their way the auction blocks
-encourages pvp with added incentives for doing so

How about a happy medium of item loot within 4 lvl range but keep the 8 lvl range for who can attack who?

Item loot should be in this server if you really want something unique. This coming from a wizard who use to solo or small group pvp my entire time on Rallos Zek. You guys are real blue if you cry about this being to harsh on red.

Exp death that can be regained in a few kills and losing some copper is hardly a death penalty imo. Its called a red server guys... not pink.

-g

[Softcore PK]

Item loot will scare too many people away imo. We need to do all we can to steal the bluebies away from Blue99, so we can have enough people to play with :/

[genrah]

Sounds like most of blue is stayin blue.

Plus you would draw in a TON of folks looking for just this sort of unique server (item loot) that are not even playing eq right now.

I honestly think the pop would be more with item loot than without.

-g

[Yukahwa]

The low quality low level PVP that 8 level limit brings to the table, with or without item loot will result in very few bluebies sticking with this server.

[Sorath]

pvp happened. a player died. pvp happened. a player died.pvp happened. a player died. pvp happened. a player died.pvp happened. a player died. pvp happened. a player died.pvp happened. a player died. pvp happened. a player died.pvp happened. a player died. pvp happened. a player died.pvp happened. a player diedpvp happened. a player died. pvp happened. a player died.. pvp happened. a player died.pvp happened. a player died. pvp happened. a player dpvp happened. a player died. pvp pvp happened. a player died. pvp happened. a player died.happened. a player died.ied.pvp happened. a player died. pvp happened. a player died.

[Softcore PK]

I think in many ways, item loot would discourage pvp. On RZ, you saw people bagging items or doing all they could to gate instead of fighting back. When they did fight back, they were usually in planar gear with all drop items bagged. If you go the other way, and only allow stuff that isn't worn to be looted, people will just stop carrying that stuff around. You'll see a lot less clicky items being used, and in some ways this would gimp melee classes. If they want to use bracer of the hidden for their see invis (and a clicky), they would have to keep it equipped all of the time or risk losing it.

Who are these hordes of people that some of you are saying will come to Red99 if item loot is enabled? I don't understand it at all; even players on RZ seemed to hate it (doing all the could to prevent it from happening).

If item loot ever goes in, it of course wouldn't stop me from playing. It would, however, gimp my characters as I would not often be willing to risk my stuff. I've never been remotely rich in EQ, and to lose any piece of equipment is a HUGE blow to me. The problem with item loot, I feel, is that the uber rich powergamers are actually risking less than players such as myself. Sure, they still risk losing the same kinds of items, but losing a resist ring is a much bigger deal for someone who doesn't have 100kpp banked.

[genrah]

I find it hard to convince the need for item loot with someone named softcore pk....but here goes.

There is a desire for such a hardcore ruleset out there, and people simply dont play EQ or many MMOS today because they are geared toward carebears.

Take a few moments to scour the forums over at darkenbane.com or lucidvision.org and you will find tons of posts asking for the good old days.

DB and LV were two of the more well know pk guilds back in the early Rallos Zek days.

I personally was never in a large guild, as it meant less targets for me to pvp with. But running solo or with a small gank squad of friends I managed to kill quite a few people, nab a lot of items, and have a hell of a time doing so.

Selling stolen goods also created a black market on the server.

As a result of solid pk guilds and pk system the anti pk movement came to light. The anti pk movement had some really strong guilds and just seeing the dynamic that this created is something that has never been recreated to this day in an mmo. At the root of this was item loot.

Item loot is what draws people to the concept.. just look at where Rallos went after LDON came out and everything went no drop with augments.

Item loot was a true death penalty. You felt like someone stole $200 from you if that robe you spent 24 hours camping was ganked. The thrill of getting killed as well as killing for loot really added to this dynamic.

People think twice before attacking with good gear on, and people think twice about wearing gear out due to being attacked. Far better concept than everything is no drop = little risk/reward.

-g

[Softcore PK]

Originally Posted by genrah [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I find it hard to convince the need for item loot with someone named softcore pk....but here goes.

There is a desire for such a hardcore ruleset out there, and people simply dont play EQ or many MMOS today because they are geared toward carebears.

Take a few moments to scour the forums over at darkenbane.com or lucidvision.org and you will find tons of posts asking for the good old days.

DB and LV were two of the more well know pk guilds back in the early Rallos Zek days.

I personally was never in a large guild, as it meant less targets for me to pvp with. But running solo or with a small gank squad of friends I managed to kill quite a few people, nab a lot of items, and have a hell of a time doing so.

Selling stolen goods also created a black market on the server.

As a result of solid pk guilds and pk system the anti pk movement came to light. The anti pk movement had some really strong guilds and just seeing the dynamic that this created is something that has never been recreated to this day in an mmo. At the root of this was item loot.

Item loot is what draws people to the concept.. just look at where Rallos went after LDON came out and everything went no drop with augments.

Item loot was a true death penalty. You felt like someone stole $200 from you if that robe you spent 24 hours camping was ganked. The thrill of getting killed as well as killing for loot really added to this dynamic.

People think twice before attacking with good gear on, and people think twice about wearing gear out due to being attacked. Far better concept than everything is no drop = little risk/reward.

-g

I'm not all that softcore, I leveled to above 50 as an elf purist on VZ.. and I made sure to attack the KoS teams.

This is a very good argument for item loot! Trust me, I get it. Harsh penalties that brought about an entire movement in an effort to stamp out heinous crimes is wonderful, and a perfect example of what a MMO community is capable of being. To me, these server politics brought about by pvp are what make EQ so great.. and absence of them is why blue EQ isn't worth playing. My first pvp server was RZ, and although I didn't stay there long I followed the politics some because the (at first) confusing anti-pk playstyle was so intriguing.

However. I still feel that item loot, on a server such as this, is a bad idea. And though it being a system that rewards powergamers over casuals and such is a decent argument, the real issue is with player population. It's great that you know of two guilds that would like to play here if item loot were introduced, but two guilds does not make a server. I feel that if Red99 is to survive, we need to do all we can to attract as many different types of people as possible. Since most of the EQ community has always been blue, this means Red99 needs to give these blue players some sort of reason to play here. And I think many of them, especially at this stage in their EQ lives, are ready for a new challenge. PvP being that challenge. But if we include item loot, I think we really would be alienating these prospective new players more than you realize. Losing a good item, as you said, is a serious blow to a player. Try to imagine how an average blue player would feel about item loot. It would turn them off of us.